Vagueness and the Aftermath - A sporadic diary

[boldie]

Paddy from the big fat Gypsy Wedding is in the Metro today Here

I am just very puzzled why something like this would go to court, doesn't seem to fit Gypsy ways 

Travellers are not Gypsies and I'm sure he's a Traveller (and one of Britain's Deadliest men apparently so a bit of a media whore maybe?)

Quite possibly so

My biggest shock at the whole series that I don't think has been touched on is the high mortality rate. Did they say that 50% did not reach the age of 50?

Almost as bad as Glaswegians then.

[doogan]

sorry for more questions Red, but I do find the Gypsie and traveller ways very interesting. How are homosexuals received in the community, it doesn't seem to be covered or mentioned in any of the shows and with such a strong emphasis on family ways and keeping to traditions with men and women's roles so strongly divided.?


cheers   

[RED-DOG]

sorry for more questions Red, but I do find the Gypsie and traveller ways very interesting. How are homosexuals received in the community, it doesn't seem to be covered or mentioned in any of the shows and with such a strong emphasis on family ways and keeping to traditions with men and women's roles so strongly divided.?


cheers   

Good question.

Just got in after a long day, but will answer later.

[highmile]

Paddy from the big fat Gypsy Wedding is in the Metro today Here

I am just very puzzled why something like this would go to court, doesn't seem to fit Gypsy ways 

Travellers are not Gypsies and I'm sure he's a Traveller (and one of Britain's Deadliest men apparently so a bit of a media whore maybe?)

I'd be interested in hearing the difference......and also where 'Romany' comes into the equation. I had  couple of good mates long ago theat described themselves as from 'true Romany blood'

[RED-DOG]

Paddy from the big fat Gypsy Wedding is in the Metro today Here

I am just very puzzled why something like this would go to court, doesn't seem to fit Gypsy ways 

Travellers are not Gypsies and I'm sure he's a Traveller (and one of Britain's Deadliest men apparently so a bit of a media whore maybe?)

I'd be interested in hearing the difference......and also where 'Romany' comes into the equation. I had  couple of good mates long ago theat described themselves as from 'true Romany blood'

Already answered this one.

http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=30601.msg1300745#msg1300745

Good explanation of Romani / Romany here  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people

[highmile]

Thank you Red-Dog, I get the distinction now. I hope you don't mind me asking but do do think that the 'gypsy' community are tarred with the same brush as the'travellers'?

[RED-DOG]

Thank you Red-Dog, I get the distinction now. I hope you don't mind me asking but do do think that the 'gypsy' community are tarred with the same brush as the'travellers'?

I don't mind you asking at all.

I'm not sure that "tarred" is the right word. It seems to imply that Gypsies are good and Travellers are bad.

If you mean do I think the Gypsy community are confused with the Irish Traveller community, then yes, I do. We also get confused with new age travellers and various other groups.

BTW- you should use an upper case letter when you write "Gypsy" or "Irish Traveller" because we are now recognised ethnic minority groups.

[RED-DOG]

sorry for more questions Red, but I do find the Gypsie and traveller ways very interesting. How are homosexuals received in the community, it doesn't seem to be covered or mentioned in any of the shows and with such a strong emphasis on family ways and keeping to traditions with men and women's roles so strongly divided.?


cheers  

It's a difficult question to answer because it's a subject that is never talked about. If asked, almost every Gypsy man would say, "We wouldn't put up with that"

Of course Homosexuality does exist within our community, but we don't openly condone it.

Homosexuals within the Gypsy community don't advertise the fact or "Come out" as it were, and that being the case, they are just sort of allowed to get on with it. In private.

No one mentions it, and everyone sort of pretends it doesn't happen.

Gypsies would never allow homosexual behaviour in public. That may seem intolerant, but it has been that way for hundreds of years. When other societies were out "Gay bashing" or sending homosexuals to prison, we were quietly ignoring them.  

[Jon MW]

sorry for more questions Red, but I do find the Gypsie and traveller ways very interesting. How are homosexuals received in the community, it doesn't seem to be covered or mentioned in any of the shows and with such a strong emphasis on family ways and keeping to traditions with men and women's roles so strongly divided.?


cheers  

It's a difficult question to answer because it's a subject that is never talked about. If asked, almost every Gypsy man would say, "We wouldn't put up with that"

Of course Homosexuality does exist within our community, but we don't openly condone it.

Homosexuals within the Gypsy community don't advertise the fact or "Come out" as it were, and that being the case, they are just sort of allowed to get on with it. In private.

No one mentions it, and everyone sort of pretends it doesn't happen.

Gypsies would never allow homosexual behaviour in public. That may seem intolerant, but it has been that way for hundreds of years. When other societies were out "Gay bashing" or sending homosexuals to prison, we were quietly ignoring them.  

I meant to ask about that when women's role in Gypsy life was being discussed, but I forgot.

If basically every woman is expected to get married - where does that leave the gay ones?

What you've written suggests the Gypsy approach is a lot like the policy the US army were using up until recently of "don't ask, don't tell".

...
 That may seem intolerant, but it has been that way for hundreds of years. ...

Prejudice against Gypsies has been that way for hundreds of years, does that mean it's acceptable?

[nirvana]

Actually, for most of our history we have been very tolerant of homosexuality with references to companions and the like. Most of society had a kind of bemused reverence for old uncles and queens. Unfortunately, despite the very tolerant approach it remained a criminal act and so very much remained in the closet.

We as Gorgers were not generally out gay bashing while Gypsies, in contrast, took a more adult approach

Gay bashing is a relatively modern thing and you could pretty much link it directly to Gay people determining on taking a more assertive approach to their situation and rightly, wanting equal rights, decrimnilisation etc. So action/reaction and fortunately a lot of this has been ironed out within a generation because the issue has been confronted and the battle (if thats what it was) has been won.

In general terms, the Gypsy (Traveller) approach on this and attitude towards women is breathtakingly unenlightened from what I can tell and just cause it has always been so doesn't make it alright - it's like me saying I've always disliked Pikeys so I reserve the right to carry on disliking them even though they don't steal all our metal anymore.

I'm sorry, but these kind of brush off's of basic rights issues hugely undermine your efforts to develop mutual understanding

[RED-DOG]

Actually, for most of our history we have been very tolerant of homosexuality with references to companions and the like. Most of society had a kind of bemused reverence for old uncles and queens. Unfortunately, despite the very tolerant approach it remained a criminal act and so very much remained in the closet.

We as Gorgers were not generally out gay bashing while Gypsies, in contrast, took a more adult approach

Gay bashing is a relatively modern thing and you could pretty much link it directly to Gay people determining on taking a more assertive approach to their situation and rightly, wanting equal rights, decrimnilisation etc. So action/reaction and fortunately a lot of this has been ironed out within a generation because the issue has been confronted and the battle (if thats what it was) has been won.

In general terms, the Gypsy (Traveller) approach on this and attitude towards women is breathtakingly unenlightened from what I can tell and just cause it has always been so doesn't make it alright - it's like me saying I've always disliked Pikeys so I reserve the right to carry on disliking them even though they don't steal all our metal anymore.

I'm sorry, but these kind of brush off's of basic rights issues hugely undermine your efforts to develop mutual understanding

Forgive me, I wasn't trying to make it alright. I accept that it is an unenlightened attitude. I was trying to explain truthfully the general attitude to a subject that simply isn't discussed within the Gypsy community.

I made an effort to tell it like it is, rather than how I might think it should be.

Your example "I've always disliked Pikeys so I reserve the right to carry on disliking them even though they don't steal all our metal anymore"  Is in some ways a very good one, because it more or less highlights the kind of passive discrimination that I was trying (Struggling) to explain.

Jon MW's statement "What you've written suggests the Gypsy approach is a lot like the policy the US army were using up until recently of "don't ask, don't tell". Comes very close to being a perfect explanation of the way Gypsies deal with homosexuality.

I suspect the real truth is that as a whole, Gypsies view homosexuality in the same way as the rest of the population, but with the proviso of "Whatever your true feelings about it are, keep them to yourself" 


I apologise again if you found my original reply offensive. I really do try not to slip into the trap of defending when I should be simply explaining. Some things are really difficult to convey accurately, especially across cultures. 


I'm not sure what you mean by "attitude towards women" You would have to expand a little.

[RED-DOG]

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[AndrewT]

Tom, I don't think any one finds any comment you make on here about Gypsy culture offensive - it's all tremendously interesting to read and makes for great debate.

There's always going to be a bit of friction between old ways and new ways. The acceptance of homosexuality in modern culture is a very recent thing, so I can understand how a culture which takes pride in the fact that it does things the way they've always done them may not have moved with the times yet. This is obviously not just a Gypsy thing - it's still very widespread in many unenlightened parts of society.

The aspect which I personally disagree with, and think is outright wrong, is pulling kids out of school at a young age. I think this is akin to clipping a bird's wings so it stays in your yard. By not going through the education system fully, most avenues for a Gypsy child to do something other than what their parents did are closed off to them. Them continuing Gypsy ways almost becomes a fait accompli, as they're going to find it very difficult to get a job in the wider community.

[Dingdell]

Tom, I don't think any one finds any comment you make on here about Gypsy culture offensive - it's all tremendously interesting to read and makes for great debate.

There's always going to be a bit of friction between old ways and new ways. The acceptance of homosexuality in modern culture is a very recent thing, so I can understand how a culture which takes pride in the fact that it does things the way they've always done them may not have moved with the times yet. This is obviously not just a Gypsy thing - it's still very widespread in many unenlightened parts of society.

The aspect which I personally disagree with, and think is outright wrong, is pulling kids out of school at a young age. I think this is akin to clipping a bird's wings so it stays in your yard. By not going through the education system fully, most avenues for a Gypsy child to do something other than what their parents did are closed off to them. Them continuing Gypsy ways almost becomes a fait accompli, as they're going to find it very difficult to get a job in the wider community.

I think that's the exact point as to why Gypsies do it - to keep their children true to the Romany ways. While I can see the pitfalls not everyone needs to be superbly educated in the 'normal' sense. The education they may get from being out of school may be what they need to live the Romany life. I don't like the fact that the women in particular seem to get a bums rush and literacy is so bad, what is the harm in enabling a person to enjoy reading a book or newspaper. So that I do stuggle with.

However no one seems to criticise parents sending their children to a Jewish school for example, to allow them to be raised within a Jewish environment as much as possible so I guess the Romany eduation is the same in theory, just not always in the classroom?

[boldie]

Tom, I don't think any one finds any comment you make on here about Gypsy culture offensive - it's all tremendously interesting to read and makes for great debate.

There's always going to be a bit of friction between old ways and new ways. The acceptance of homosexuality in modern culture is a very recent thing, so I can understand how a culture which takes pride in the fact that it does things the way they've always done them may not have moved with the times yet. This is obviously not just a Gypsy thing - it's still very widespread in many unenlightened parts of society.

The aspect which I personally disagree with, and think is outright wrong, is pulling kids out of school at a young age. I think this is akin to clipping a bird's wings so it stays in your yard. By not going through the education system fully, most avenues for a Gypsy child to do something other than what their parents did are closed off to them. Them continuing Gypsy ways almost becomes a fait accompli, as they're going to find it very difficult to get a job in the wider community.

I think that's the exact point as to why Gypsies do it - to keep their children true to the Romany ways. While I can see the pitfalls not everyone needs to be superbly educated in the 'normal' sense. The education they may get from being out of school may be what they need to live the Romany life. I don't like the fact that the women in particular seem to get a bums rush and literacy is so bad, what is the harm in enabling a person to enjoy reading a book or newspaper. So that I do stuggle with.

However no one seems to criticise parents sending their children to a Jewish school for example, to allow them to be raised within a Jewish environment as much as possible so I guess the Romany eduation is the same in theory, just not always in the classroom?

I think though that one of the issues with pulling kids out of schools earlier and them not going on to further education is that it stops the integration of those kids, and thereby the Gypsy community as a whole. This might of course be one of the reasons for pulling them out of school, I don't know, but it definitely makes integration trickier.

Jewish kids go to uni and become doctors and lawyers, the same for Black kids and Asian kids.This had enabled the Jewish, Asian and Black community to itegrate into white society as they'll end up with standard jobs and people mix with them more. One of the reasons for the discrimination against the Gypsy community is that they are a very closed community in that most people don't interact with them..well, ever.

I reckon Mr Red will probably say that they don't want to "integrate" as such but more be accepted for what they are as integration almost automatically means giving up the "Gypsy ways" and that's a fair point but it is one of the reasons (IMO) why Gypsies are still discriminated against at the level that they are.

If that makes any sense.