Vagueness and the Aftermath - A sporadic diary

[RED-DOG]

Tom, I don't think any one finds any comment you make on here about Gypsy culture offensive - it's all tremendously interesting to read and makes for great debate.

There's always going to be a bit of friction between old ways and new ways. The acceptance of homosexuality in modern culture is a very recent thing, so I can understand how a culture which takes pride in the fact that it does things the way they've always done them may not have moved with the times yet. This is obviously not just a Gypsy thing - it's still very widespread in many unenlightened parts of society.

The aspect which I personally disagree with, and think is outright wrong, is pulling kids out of school at a young age. I think this is akin to clipping a bird's wings so it stays in your yard. By not going through the education system fully, most avenues for a Gypsy child to do something other than what their parents did are closed off to them. Them continuing Gypsy ways almost becomes a fait accompli, as they're going to find it very difficult to get a job in the wider community.

Thank you Andrew.

The "Pulling the kids put of school causes endless debate, and rightly so.

Recently if has become a much bigger issue that ever before, because now, for the first time, some Gypsy families have the opportunity to allow their children to go through the education system fully.

You, not surprisingly, take the view that going through the system fully is the best thing for the child, so for the purposes of this debate, let me try to present the general Gypsy view, bearing in mind that this will vary from individual to individual within the community and does not necessarily reflect my own views exactly.

Our children are not taken out of education, just out of the mainstream system. It doesn't mean that they stop learning, or stop receiving an education, we're just not convinced that the government knows best when it comes to teaching a child about what is important.

Gypsy children who have been in the system between the ages of 5 and 12 are virtually indistinguishable from the average 16yo school leaver, although the ability to attend school in an unbroken run between these ages is a relatively recent phenomenon.

Gypsy children (Both boys and girls) are not prevented from accessing further education once they have passed that susceptible age and reached adulthood.

Our society is different. Our somewhat secular, close knit culture and traditions, our sometimes self-imposed marginalisation has seen us through generations of persecution of the worst kind. (the crime of being a Gypsy in this country was once punishable by death).

We think out traditions are worth holding on to.  


We take them out of mainstream education at an age when we know that they are are most susceptible to peer pressure to experiment with in things like binge-drinking, drug use and under age sex.

There are loads of other aspects, and speaking personally now, I am very open minded about the whole affair. Things are changing fast, I'm not sure about anything any more.

[AndrewT]

It has to be said that, with the state of many schools now, if a child has half a brain in their head, they're not actually going to learn much at secondary school - anything beyond reading, writing and basic maths is a bonus, so provided a Gypsy child can learn all this at home, it's not actually going to make much difference as to what they actually know.

Going to school and taking the exams does give the kid bits of paper which say they've 'been educated' though, which helps when getting jobs.

It also provides a chance for the kids to mix with non-Gypsies and, crucially, gives non-Gypsies the chance to mix with and get to know Gypsies, which can surely only help to break down barriers of mistrust between communities.

A good example of this is in Northern Ireland - kids in mixed schools are less tribal than those in schools divided by religion.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4621426.stm

Of course, what I sense may be behind some of the reluctance of some Gypsies to keep their kids in school is the nagging doubt that if they do, the kids will get swayed by modern life and the Gypsy ways will be lost - in the battle between the old ways and the new, the old will lose. Particularly relevant in that article is the quote 'recent research suggests the type of school a child attends has a bigger influence on attitudes than parents.' I can see how this would cause concern to a Gypsy parent.

So, there are positives and negatives. You can't really just lick the icing off a cake - you either have to eat the icing and the marzipan together or have no cake at all.

[RED-DOG]

Some very insightful observations from yourself and Ding. I'm going to highlight a few and comment on them individually.

I have to say though, I'm pretty much blown away by both of you for your insight. I expected a much more one sided view. My bad.

[RED-DOG]

Ding says

I think that's the exact point as to why Gypsies do it - to keep their children true to the Romany ways. While I can see the pitfalls not everyone needs to be superbly educated in the 'normal' sense. The education they may get from being out of school may be what they need to live the Romany life

There's a lot of truth in this. I think it's important to realise that we are all making decisions on behalf of our kids all the time. For instance, we may decide that boarding school is the way to go, and I'm sure that way brings tremendous benefits and rewards, but barding school also deprives a child of some things that can never be replaced at a later date. The same goes for a child brought up in a devout household, or for that matter an atheist one. What I'm really tying to say is, any way you choose to raise your kids will have pro's and cons. The Romany life is a good one.

[TightEnd]

Tom, sorry for more questions


the programme the other night focussed on Appleby fair, in Cumbria. The scale of the thing looked massive, so I went digging and found http://www.applebyfair.org/

Appleby Fair is unique in Europe and, as well as attracting around 10,000 Gypsies and Travellers, over 30,000 other visitors attend the Fair, with Sunday being the traditional main visitors’ day. It transforms the town of Appleby for the week, as it normally has a population of around 2,500.

Is it unique (Stow is not similar?)? What makes it unique? 

Is it specifically a Gypsy fair? How do "over 30,000 other visitors attend the Fair" integrate with "around 10,000 Gypsies and Travellers" at these events?

What did you think of the attitude of the police as shown on the programme?

At these Gyspy gatherings, is the focus on commerce (trade in horses for example) far more than a social gathering that is done by tradition?

[RED-DOG]

Ding says

I don't like the fact that the women in particular seem to get a bums rush and literacy is so bad, what is the harm in enabling a person to enjoy reading a book or newspaper. So that I do struggle with.

I can categorically state that Gypsies have no problem with literacy among women, if fact if anything, the women typically achieve a higher standard of literacy than the men.

Literacy has always been something to be proud of, regardless of gender. "Look Sam, our Tom can read"

Need clarification re the "Bums rush comment.

[RED-DOG]

Tom, sorry for more questions


the programme the other night focussed on Appleby fair, in Cumbria. The scale of the thing looked massive, so I went digging and found http://www.applebyfair.org/

Appleby Fair is unique in Europe and, as well as attracting around 10,000 Gypsies and Travellers, over 30,000 other visitors attend the Fair, with Sunday being the traditional main visitors’ day. It transforms the town of Appleby for the week, as it normally has a population of around 2,500.

Is it unique (Stow is not similar?)? What makes it unique? 

Is it specifically a Gypsy fair? How do "over 30,000 other visitors attend the Fair" integrate with "around 10,000 Gypsies and Travellers" at these events?

What did you think of the attitude of the police as shown on the programme?

At these Gyspy gatherings, is the focus on commerce (trade in horses for example) far more than a social gathering that is done by tradition?

Wow Rich! Great questions. Have to go out soon, will definitely come back to these later.

[RED-DOG]

Ding says

However no one seems to criticise parents sending their children to a Jewish school for example, to allow them to be raised within a Jewish environment as much as possible so I guess the Romany eduation is the same in theory, just not always in the classroom?

I just love this comment. I wish I had made it.

[Laxie]

They're definitely hitting on some good 'uns today.  You're going to be pretty busy when ya get back.  

[RED-DOG]

Andrew says

Edit: Boldie said this, not Andrew. (Sorry Mr B)

I think though that one of the issues with pulling kids out of schools earlier and them not going on to further education is that it stops the integration of those kids, and thereby the Gypsy community as a whole. This might of course be one of the reasons for pulling them out of school, I don't know, but it definitely makes integration trickier.

I think this is a fair comment. I would like to add that integration goes hand in hand with assimilation, and that's what I think we're afraid of.

[relaedgc]

I don't generally make a response, however I've always read and been interested to hear your side of the Gypsy culture -- I'd be completely ignorant else wise.

In honesty, what you speak of differs considerably to what I have always perceived of the community. Granted, much of that is a culmination of the 'travelling' (if I may call it that) cultures as opposed to any one group in particular. Direct experience and communication is far more limited, though I fear much of their name is simply tarnished in passed down prejudice as opposed to reality.

[RED-DOG]

Andrew says

It has to be said that, with the state of many schools now, if a child has half a brain in their head, they're not actually going to learn much at secondary school - anything beyond reading, writing and basic maths is a bonus, so provided a Gypsy child can learn all this at home, it's not actually going to make much difference as to what they actually know.

We have no problem with the children attending school Andrew, until they reach a certain age. And yes, they do learn quickly, that's part of the reason why we don't see the benefit of them continuing to attend for their entire childhood when there is other important stuff for them to learn.

In our view, by leaving school early, they get the best of both worlds.

[Jon MW]

Ding says

I don't like the fact that the women in particular seem to get a bums rush and literacy is so bad, what is the harm in enabling a person to enjoy reading a book or newspaper. So that I do struggle with.

I can categorically state that Gypsies have no problem with literacy among women, if fact if anything, the women typically achieve a higher standard of literacy than the men.

Literacy has always been something to be proud of, regardless of gender. "Look Sam, our Tom can read"

Need clarification re the "Bums rush comment.

I think the comment about women and the comment about literacy are 2 separate issues.

And it may (or may not be) the same thing that Ding was getting at but - everything that has come across has suggested that the role of women is defined as a homemaker and the role of men is defined as the breadwinner.

Whilst this isn't objectively bad it does remove the element of choice, just like removing children from school removes a lot of their choice and similarly a lot of 'having' to do things in a certain way - because it's the Gypsy way - removes the choice about doing things in new ways.

Every minority group takes measures to protect their way of life - but could the rights of the community sometimes over-ride the rights of the individual?

[AndrewT]

I would like to add that integration goes hand in hand with assimilation, and that's what I think we're afraid of.

I spent about 3 paragraphs trying to say this - this is exactly what I was trying to say.

[Laxie]

I would like to add that integration goes hand in hand with assimilation, and that's what I think we're afraid of.

I spent about 3 paragraphs trying to say this - this is exactly what I was trying to say.

It's ok honey.  When you grow up, you'll be as smart as Tom.  Just need another few years under your belt.