Vagueness and the Aftermath - A sporadic diary

[RED-DOG]

Most of the Yorkshire and Derbyshire towns of my youth were supported by coal production, but my home town of Sheffield was a steel town.

Firth Brown was the big name, they supplied the raw materials for hundreds of cutlers, engineering firms and fabricators.

They employed hundreds of men, and their lorries, usually Seddon-Atkinson articulated units, could be seen everywhere.

The heat produced by their furnaces was so great that in winter, you could stand outside on the street and have a warm.

I used to hawk around all the places that Firth Brown supplied trying to buy their waste metal. It came in many forms: Turnings, millings, chippings, grindings, stampings, solid off cuts and, the holy grail, billet ends.

I stumbled on a short film about Firth Browns today. I absolutely loved it and I know that some of you would enjoy it too, especially the likes of Tony, Rod, Shaz etc.


The link below should take you to the film. It's on the right of the page. (Don't forget to click the full screen icon)



http://www.yorkshirefilmarchive.com/film/firth-brown-tour-works

[tikay]

I'm quite busy Next Door at the moment Tom, but I'll have a look later this evening.

I did have a quick shufty. Love the rumpy pumpy music they used to put on to these films in that period. Pathe News always had rousing music too.

[RED-DOG]

I'm quite busy Next Door at the moment Tom, but I'll have a look later this evening.

I did have a quick shufty. Love the rumpy pumpy music they used to put on to these films in that period. Pathe News always had rousing music too.

This film has been waiting since 1957. It can wait a little longer.

PS- Note how little protection the workers had. No ear defenders, hard hats, steel toecap boots etc, just a waistcoat and a flat cap for what looks like one of the most dangerous work places on the planet.

[mulhuzz]

what was so special about billet ends that they were the holy grail?

(forgive the ignorant question...)

[RED-DOG]

what was so special about billet ends that they were the holy grail?

(forgive the ignorant question...)

Hey Mr Huzz. Thanks for popping in.

Billets are basically big bars of mild steel that have been rolled into a transportable, workable size and shape.







These were the raw materials that dozens of firms used every day.

Mostly the waste steel from these firms were in the form of turnings like the ones in the pic below, or in the other forms I described, chippings, stampings etc, all of which varied in density.






When I bought waste metals from these firms the manager and I would usually make an educated guess as to what the weight would be, it was a common practice called 'Lumping'.

As you can see from the pic, a big pile of turnings looked like a lot but actually weighed very little, so it was difficult to gain much of an advantage when estimating the weight. A one ton pile of turnings looks like it must weigh at least 5 tons.

Billet ends on the other hand were the complete opposite. If a billet was say, six inches too long for whatever process the firm was going to put it through, the end would be cut off and discarded.

A very small pile of billet ends weigh an incredible amount, you could easily fit a ton in a wheelbarrow, (Not advisable) and it was often quite easy to 'Lump' a ton and find that you had three tons when you weighed in.



Great question. I hope the answer made sense.

[RED-DOG]

Here's an excellent example.



This is a cardboard box full of stainless steel billet ends. You would probably lump them for a quarter of a ton, or perhaps half a ton, let's say a ton if we're pushed.

In truth there is at least two tons in that box, and current stainless steel prices are North of £700 a ton.

The trouble is, an urchin like me wouldn't be allowed within 100 yards of that factory floor these days. No selling the scrap and putting the proceeds towards the workers Christmas fund. No 'Cash in hand' sweetener for the manager. It's all in the skip, over the scale, electronic, audited payment.

I suppose it's progress.

[nirvana]

Here's an excellent example.



This is a cardboard box full of stainless steel billet ends. You would probably lump them for a quarter of a ton, or perhaps half a ton, let's say a ton if we're pushed.

In truth there is at least two tons in that box, and current stainless steel prices are North of £700 a ton.

The trouble is, an urchin like me wouldn't be allowed within 100 yards of that factory floor these days. No selling the scrap and putting the proceeds towards the workers Christmas fund. No 'Cash in hand' sweetener for the manager. It's all in the skip, over the scale, electronic, audited payment.

I suppose it's progress.

I first started work in the offices of a factory in North London in 1979. In those days we turned and plated our own copper alloy or brass contacts, as well as stainless steel and mild steel fixings - incredibly at that time, it was fairly standard to plate the contacts with 5 microns of gold. As a reference point, a lot of electrical connectors used in quite high end applications will almost never have more than the US Mil Standard of 1.27 microns or often now be immersion gold plated with a tenth of that - 0,127 microns.

The maintenance or facilities departments in those days had it away - an absolutely plum job. All kinds of work at their homes would get done by people commercially contracting with the business. But there were other beneifts so back to the swarf and bar ends generated from the lathes. This was stored outside the factory in large metal bins and I think it supplemented the incomes of the turners and facilities people for a while. Security wasn't too hot back then and I really can't count the number of times I'd be outside with a coffee and a cigarette and see a smallish low loader drive through and around and get a sense of how much was sat outside, they were always 'lost' when challenged but you could be pretty sure a percentage of that scrap would be gone in a few days. No one seemed to mind and it seemed like the only people who knew the value of this scrap were the people about to nick it and our more trades oriented employees rather than us in our insulated office world.

For years, the gold reclaim from anodes, old solutions, scrap contacts, contacts swept away by the cleaners was the real prize though. Again, smart people sensibly disposed of this material with gold reclaim companies who would estimate the value of the scrap, assay the value and then shake hands with the directors and the facilities people on the value that would be returned to us. I'd love to know what percentage of this value ever got back into the companies books and how much was trousered by various links in the chain from manufacture to scrap disposal to the reclaim companies.

Interesting times and later, when I was relatively senior in the company with responsibilities for these kinds of things, times had changed, metals and gold were much more valuable and as you alluded to, everything was much more secure and completely ethically dealt with.

Right trousers, wrong times for me.

[RED-DOG]

Here's an excellent example.



This is a cardboard box full of stainless steel billet ends. You would probably lump them for a quarter of a ton, or perhaps half a ton, let's say a ton if we're pushed.

In truth there is at least two tons in that box, and current stainless steel prices are North of £700 a ton.

The trouble is, an urchin like me wouldn't be allowed within 100 yards of that factory floor these days. No selling the scrap and putting the proceeds towards the workers Christmas fund. No 'Cash in hand' sweetener for the manager. It's all in the skip, over the scale, electronic, audited payment.

I suppose it's progress.

I first started work in the offices of a factory in North London in 1979. In those days we turned and plated our own copper alloy or brass contacts, as well as stainless steel and mild steel fixings - incredibly at that time, it was fairly standard to plate the contacts with 5 microns of gold. As a reference point, a lot of electrical connectors used in quite high end applications will almost never have more than the US Mil Standard of 1.27 microns or often now be immersion gold plated with a tenth of that - 0,127 microns.

The maintenance or facilities departments in those days had it away - an absolutely plum job. All kinds of work at their homes would get done by people commercially contracting with the business. But there were other beneifts so back to the swarf and bar ends generated from the lathes. This was stored outside the factory in large metal bins and I think it supplemented the incomes of the turners and facilities people for a while. Security wasn't too hot back then and I really can't count the number of times I'd be outside with a coffee and a cigarette and see a smallish low loader drive through and around and get a sense of how much was sat outside, they were always 'lost' when challenged but you could be pretty sure a percentage of that scrap would be gone in a few days. No one seemed to mind and it seemed like the only people who knew the value of this scrap were the people about to nick it and our more trades oriented employees rather than us in our insulated office world.

For years, the gold reclaim from anodes, old solutions, scrap contacts, contacts swept away by the cleaners was the real prize though. Again, smart people sensibly disposed of this material with gold reclaim companies who would estimate the value of the scrap, assay the value and then shake hands with the directors and the facilities people on the value that would be returned to us. I'd love to know what percentage of this value ever got back into the companies books and how much was trousered by various links in the chain from manufacture to scrap disposal to the reclaim companies.

Interesting times and later, when I was relatively senior in the company with responsibilities for these kinds of things, times had changed, metals and gold were much more valuable and as you alluded to, everything was much more secure and completely ethically dealt with.

Right trousers, wrong times for me.

What a great post.

Love the quote too. I will be stealing it.



"Right trousers, wrong times for me"

[bobAlike]

One of my responsibilities with my current contract at a well known aero space manufacturer has been to help reduce how much scrap metal is produced every year. Some mind numbing numbers, one facility produced approx. £8m of titanium alloy every year, within the first year we knocked that down to around £3m. There are many parts to this business and the one I'm currently working on has a scrap budget of £114m per year.

[RED-DOG]

One of my responsibilities with my current contract at a well known aero space manufacturer has been to help reduce how much scrap metal is produced every year. Some mind numbing numbers, one facility produced approx. £8m of titanium alloy every year, within the first year we knocked that down to around £3m. There are many parts to this business and the one I'm currently working on has a scrap budget of £114m per year.

Incredible!

Any info about your trousers?

[bobAlike]

One of my responsibilities with my current contract at a well known aero space manufacturer has been to help reduce how much scrap metal is produced every year. Some mind numbing numbers, one facility produced approx. £8m of titanium alloy every year, within the first year we knocked that down to around £3m. There are many parts to this business and the one I'm currently working on has a scrap budget of £114m per year.

Incredible!

Any info about your trousers?

They're not as loose as the used to be

[Rod Paradise]

Here's an excellent example.



This is a cardboard box full of stainless steel billet ends. You would probably lump them for a quarter of a ton, or perhaps half a ton, let's say a ton if we're pushed.

In truth there is at least two tons in that box, and current stainless steel prices are North of £700 a ton.

The trouble is, an urchin like me wouldn't be allowed within 100 yards of that factory floor these days. No selling the scrap and putting the proceeds towards the workers Christmas fund. No 'Cash in hand' sweetener for the manager. It's all in the skip, over the scale, electronic, audited payment.

I suppose it's progress.

I first started work in the offices of a factory in North London in 1979. In those days we turned and plated our own copper alloy or brass contacts, as well as stainless steel and mild steel fixings - incredibly at that time, it was fairly standard to plate the contacts with 5 microns of gold. As a reference point, a lot of electrical connectors used in quite high end applications will almost never have more than the US Mil Standard of 1.27 microns or often now be immersion gold plated with a tenth of that - 0,127 microns.

The maintenance or facilities departments in those days had it away - an absolutely plum job. All kinds of work at their homes would get done by people commercially contracting with the business. But there were other beneifts so back to the swarf and bar ends generated from the lathes. This was stored outside the factory in large metal bins and I think it supplemented the incomes of the turners and facilities people for a while. Security wasn't too hot back then and I really can't count the number of times I'd be outside with a coffee and a cigarette and see a smallish low loader drive through and around and get a sense of how much was sat outside, they were always 'lost' when challenged but you could be pretty sure a percentage of that scrap would be gone in a few days. No one seemed to mind and it seemed like the only people who knew the value of this scrap were the people about to nick it and our more trades oriented employees rather than us in our insulated office world.

For years, the gold reclaim from anodes, old solutions, scrap contacts, contacts swept away by the cleaners was the real prize though. Again, smart people sensibly disposed of this material with gold reclaim companies who would estimate the value of the scrap, assay the value and then shake hands with the directors and the facilities people on the value that would be returned to us. I'd love to know what percentage of this value ever got back into the companies books and how much was trousered by various links in the chain from manufacture to scrap disposal to the reclaim companies.

Interesting times and later, when I was relatively senior in the company with responsibilities for these kinds of things, times had changed, metals and gold were much more valuable and as you alluded to, everything was much more secure and completely ethically dealt with.

Right trousers, wrong times for me.

I love that last sentence too, it sums up my time in Telecoms, in the old days power was distributed on overhead copper 'buzz bars' 4-6inches deep, 1-3 wide - offcuts were naturally very valuable, so creative sparks and install crews would route the copper as efficiently as possible and the spare would do the crew a turn. By the time I got into the game they were switching to aluminium bars, and the routings were monitored for 'savings'.

My one chance of a big score came when the company I worked for (who made, supplied, installed and commissioned the telephone exchanges for BT) changed cable supplier - the cheaper supplier used a shite insulating plastic which, after a few years of use started to break down and exude an oily substance - which dripped into the gubbins of the exchange and caused faults. BT instantly sued us, we sued the supplier. In the meantime BT and the company had to get the oily cables out, replace them with good ones, all without switching off the exchanges and causing havoc with missed calls (Murphy's law of Telecoms stated that if you crash an exchange someone is guaranteed to snuff it and not have managed to call an ambulance - mobiles thankfully have frustrated Murphy a bit). So a huge programme of selectively switching off half of an exchange, changing the cables and then doing the same on the other half began. This had the added complication of if the 2 exchanges were linked, you had to turn off the right halves so as not to drop the route between them.
Every cable recovered was sent to a small unit the company had outside Liverpool. Our department (installation planning) were cataloguing them and they were held as evidence in the court cases which were underway. We ended up with about 600 plastic bins, lids fastened down and taped and individually labelled stacked up in the back of the unit. Then came the glorious day, court cases won the evidence was now to be disposed of.... tons of copper cable - 'Get rid of it' we'd an offer of quite a few thousand... But the warehouse manager, officious twat that he be, paid the feckin council to come pick them up over the weekend so he could look efficient to the management.

Biggest score ever... and it got away.

Never mind Rodney, this time next year....

[RED-DOG]

Here's an excellent example.



This is a cardboard box full of stainless steel billet ends. You would probably lump them for a quarter of a ton, or perhaps half a ton, let's say a ton if we're pushed.

In truth there is at least two tons in that box, and current stainless steel prices are North of £700 a ton.

The trouble is, an urchin like me wouldn't be allowed within 100 yards of that factory floor these days. No selling the scrap and putting the proceeds towards the workers Christmas fund. No 'Cash in hand' sweetener for the manager. It's all in the skip, over the scale, electronic, audited payment.

I suppose it's progress.

I first started work in the offices of a factory in North London in 1979. In those days we turned and plated our own copper alloy or brass contacts, as well as stainless steel and mild steel fixings - incredibly at that time, it was fairly standard to plate the contacts with 5 microns of gold. As a reference point, a lot of electrical connectors used in quite high end applications will almost never have more than the US Mil Standard of 1.27 microns or often now be immersion gold plated with a tenth of that - 0,127 microns.

The maintenance or facilities departments in those days had it away - an absolutely plum job. All kinds of work at their homes would get done by people commercially contracting with the business. But there were other beneifts so back to the swarf and bar ends generated from the lathes. This was stored outside the factory in large metal bins and I think it supplemented the incomes of the turners and facilities people for a while. Security wasn't too hot back then and I really can't count the number of times I'd be outside with a coffee and a cigarette and see a smallish low loader drive through and around and get a sense of how much was sat outside, they were always 'lost' when challenged but you could be pretty sure a percentage of that scrap would be gone in a few days. No one seemed to mind and it seemed like the only people who knew the value of this scrap were the people about to nick it and our more trades oriented employees rather than us in our insulated office world.

For years, the gold reclaim from anodes, old solutions, scrap contacts, contacts swept away by the cleaners was the real prize though. Again, smart people sensibly disposed of this material with gold reclaim companies who would estimate the value of the scrap, assay the value and then shake hands with the directors and the facilities people on the value that would be returned to us. I'd love to know what percentage of this value ever got back into the companies books and how much was trousered by various links in the chain from manufacture to scrap disposal to the reclaim companies.

Interesting times and later, when I was relatively senior in the company with responsibilities for these kinds of things, times had changed, metals and gold were much more valuable and as you alluded to, everything was much more secure and completely ethically dealt with.

Right trousers, wrong times for me.

I love that last sentence too, it sums up my time in Telecoms, in the old days power was distributed on overhead copper 'buzz bars' 4-6inches deep, 1-3 wide - offcuts were naturally very valuable, so creative sparks and install crews would route the copper as efficiently as possible and the spare would do the crew a turn. By the time I got into the game they were switching to aluminium bars, and the routings were monitored for 'savings'.

My one chance of a big score came when the company I worked for (who made, supplied, installed and commissioned the telephone exchanges for BT) changed cable supplier - the cheaper supplier used a shite insulating plastic which, after a few years of use started to break down and exude an oily substance - which dripped into the gubbins of the exchange and caused faults. BT instantly sued us, we sued the supplier. In the meantime BT and the company had to get the oily cables out, replace them with good ones, all without switching off the exchanges and causing havoc with missed calls (Murphy's law of Telecoms stated that if you crash an exchange someone is guaranteed to snuff it and not have managed to call an ambulance - mobiles thankfully have frustrated Murphy a bit). So a huge programme of selectively switching off half of an exchange, changing the cables and then doing the same on the other half began. This had the added complication of if the 2 exchanges were linked, you had to turn off the right halves so as not to drop the route between them.
Every cable recovered was sent to a small unit the company had outside Liverpool. Our department (installation planning) were cataloguing them and they were held as evidence in the court cases which were underway. We ended up with about 600 plastic bins, lids fastened down and taped and individually labelled stacked up in the back of the unit. Then came the glorious day, court cases won the evidence was now to be disposed of.... tons of copper cable - 'Get rid of it' we'd an offer of quite a few thousand... But the warehouse manager, officious twat that he be, paid the feckin council to come pick them up over the weekend so he could look efficient to the management.

Biggest score ever... and it got away.

Never mind Rodney, this time next year....

Another great story. Thanks Rod.

I bet that warehouse manager was popular.

I bet a few council workers had the right trousers on too.

[tikay]

Some great stories here, great stuff.

[Rod Paradise]

Here's an excellent example.



This is a cardboard box full of stainless steel billet ends. You would probably lump them for a quarter of a ton, or perhaps half a ton, let's say a ton if we're pushed.

In truth there is at least two tons in that box, and current stainless steel prices are North of £700 a ton.

The trouble is, an urchin like me wouldn't be allowed within 100 yards of that factory floor these days. No selling the scrap and putting the proceeds towards the workers Christmas fund. No 'Cash in hand' sweetener for the manager. It's all in the skip, over the scale, electronic, audited payment.

I suppose it's progress.

I first started work in the offices of a factory in North London in 1979. In those days we turned and plated our own copper alloy or brass contacts, as well as stainless steel and mild steel fixings - incredibly at that time, it was fairly standard to plate the contacts with 5 microns of gold. As a reference point, a lot of electrical connectors used in quite high end applications will almost never have more than the US Mil Standard of 1.27 microns or often now be immersion gold plated with a tenth of that - 0,127 microns.

The maintenance or facilities departments in those days had it away - an absolutely plum job. All kinds of work at their homes would get done by people commercially contracting with the business. But there were other beneifts so back to the swarf and bar ends generated from the lathes. This was stored outside the factory in large metal bins and I think it supplemented the incomes of the turners and facilities people for a while. Security wasn't too hot back then and I really can't count the number of times I'd be outside with a coffee and a cigarette and see a smallish low loader drive through and around and get a sense of how much was sat outside, they were always 'lost' when challenged but you could be pretty sure a percentage of that scrap would be gone in a few days. No one seemed to mind and it seemed like the only people who knew the value of this scrap were the people about to nick it and our more trades oriented employees rather than us in our insulated office world.

For years, the gold reclaim from anodes, old solutions, scrap contacts, contacts swept away by the cleaners was the real prize though. Again, smart people sensibly disposed of this material with gold reclaim companies who would estimate the value of the scrap, assay the value and then shake hands with the directors and the facilities people on the value that would be returned to us. I'd love to know what percentage of this value ever got back into the companies books and how much was trousered by various links in the chain from manufacture to scrap disposal to the reclaim companies.

Interesting times and later, when I was relatively senior in the company with responsibilities for these kinds of things, times had changed, metals and gold were much more valuable and as you alluded to, everything was much more secure and completely ethically dealt with.

Right trousers, wrong times for me.

Forgot to say I remember watching a Discovery/NatGeo series called Meltdown where American scrappers hunted for scrapped precious metals. They'd hunt in abandoned factories, aircraft graveyards, one genius even supplied and fitted new carpet tiles for jewellery workshop at a loss, and made a few grand after washing out the old ones and collecting all the scrap precious metal that had got worked into them over the years. If it's on again you might enjoy it - or it might annoy you with possibilities.

Found links for it online.... https://www.yidio.com/show/meltdown

I also remember reading that whoever finds a technique to hoover the sides of motorways & main roads and the bottom of drains without disrupting traffic will make fortunes - the platinum coming out of car catalytic converters mean that dirt is thought to be as rich in platinum as some of the best platinum ore....