Vagueness and the Aftermath - A sporadic diary

[Doobs]

What an absolute tragedy.

Surely at some point in the journey you have to pull over in a quiet spot and check that everyone is OK.



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-50150070

The driver was certainly in no hurry if it took him 3 days Holyhead to Essex.

It seems the first reports were wrong and it now looks like he didn't travel far from the port at all before checking on the contents of the trailer.  It seems possible that he hadn't had the container for long at all, though I can't be sure on that.

Charging him with murder seems odd to me, as it seems unclear that anyone intended to kill people.   

[tikay]

What an absolute tragedy.

Surely at some point in the journey you have to pull over in a quiet spot and check that everyone is OK.



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-50150070

The driver was certainly in no hurry if it took him 3 days Holyhead to Essex.

It seems the first reports were wrong and it now looks like he didn't travel far from the port at all before checking on the contents of the trailer.  It seems possible that he hadn't had the container for long at all, though I can't be sure on that.

Charging him with murder seems odd to me, as it seems unclear that anyone intended to kill people.   

From what I can gather, he has not been charged with murder, he was arrested on suspicion of murder & was being questioned.

The Lorry Driver & tractor unit is said to have collected the Trailer from Purfleet at 0105, & the bodies were discovered just 25 minutes later (0130) in Grays.

Based on that, seems highly unlikely to me that the deaths occurred in the 25 minutes after the tractor unit collected the container, seems far more likely the deaths occurred earlier.

The driver may be under suspicion as part of a wider inquiry (conspiracy etc) but seems unlikely he could have been responsible, unless he was the one running the whole operation. 

[Doobs]

What an absolute tragedy.

Surely at some point in the journey you have to pull over in a quiet spot and check that everyone is OK.



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-50150070

The driver was certainly in no hurry if it took him 3 days Holyhead to Essex.

It seems the first reports were wrong and it now looks like he didn't travel far from the port at all before checking on the contents of the trailer.  It seems possible that he hadn't had the container for long at all, though I can't be sure on that.

Charging him with murder seems odd to me, as it seems unclear that anyone intended to kill people.  

From what I can gather, he has not been charged with murder, he was arrested on suspicion of murder & was being questioned.

The Lorry Driver & tractor unit is said to have collected the Trailer from Purfleet at 0105, & the bodies were discovered just 25 minutes later (0130) in Grays.

Based on that, seems highly unlikely to me that the deaths occurred in the 25 minutes after the tractor unit collected the container, seems far more likely the deaths occurred earlier.

The driver may be under suspicion as part of a wider inquiry (conspiracy etc) but seems unlikely he could have been responsible, unless he was the one running the whole operation.  

It must be too early for me this morning.   I did mean arrested on suspicion of murder, but some other words came out.   I thought they had to be some intent with murder and that seems unlikely whoever is the person responsible.  

I wasn't really sure on the time he picked up the trailer, as wouldn't a tractor unit be needed to get it on a ferry?   I don't know how these things really work.

edit.   just checked and the ferry operator can load the trailer on the ferry and it can travel on its own.

[Jon MW]

...

It must be too early for me this morning.   I did mean arrested on suspicion of murder, but some other words came out.   I thought they had to be some intent with murder and that seems unlikely whoever is the person responsible.   
...

You don't have to specifically think - I'm going to kill these people - to be guilty of murder.

For example, if you had people locked up for several days and genuinely forgot to feed them - that could (would?) still count as murder; because the only consequence of your actions would be them dying; that's the part of murder that's "on purpose", even if it wasn't exactly your intention.

(not exactly sure if I explained that as clearly as I could, but I hope you get my gist)

[tikay]

^^^^

Yes.

The trailer & container were only in the possession of the driver & tractor unit for 25 minutes based on various media reports.

I imagine they are questioning him on the basis they hope he knows more about the chain of people involved in the operation.  

Incidentally, I understand that thermal-imaging cameras can't detect body heat inside a refrigerated container, though by the time the container arrived, tragically, it's likely there was no body heat anyway. 

It's a truly awful affair, all these guys died just trying to get a better life for themselves.

[tikay]

...

It must be too early for me this morning.   I did mean arrested on suspicion of murder, but some other words came out.   I thought they had to be some intent with murder and that seems unlikely whoever is the person responsible.   
...

You don't have to specifically think - I'm going to kill these people - to be guilty of murder.

For example, if you had people locked up for several days and genuinely forgot to feed them - that could (would?) still count as murder; because the only consequence of your actions would be them dying; that's the part of murder that's "on purpose", even if it wasn't exactly your intention.

(not exactly sure if I explained that as clearly as I could, but I hope you get my gist)

I bow to your wisdom Jon, but I would have assumed that was manslaughter, though the line between manslaughter & murder is often very thin.

[Doobs]

Just reading about transporting these refridgerated containers and it is possible they can be plugged in on your behalf on the ferry, and it is a service they often provide free.   

Maybe there was never any intention to put the cooling on?   

[tikay]

Just reading about transporting these refridgerated containers and it is possible they can be plugged in on your behalf on the ferry, and it is a service they often provide free.   

Maybe there was never any intention to put the cooling on?   

Yes, that would make much more sense.

[Jon MW]

...

It must be too early for me this morning.   I did mean arrested on suspicion of murder, but some other words came out.   I thought they had to be some intent with murder and that seems unlikely whoever is the person responsible.   
...

You don't have to specifically think - I'm going to kill these people - to be guilty of murder.

For example, if you had people locked up for several days and genuinely forgot to feed them - that could (would?) still count as murder; because the only consequence of your actions would be them dying; that's the part of murder that's "on purpose", even if it wasn't exactly your intention.

(not exactly sure if I explained that as clearly as I could, but I hope you get my gist)

I bow to your wisdom Jon, but I would have assumed that was manslaughter, though the line between manslaughter & murder is often very thin.

The line is thin - I had a quick look and it seems that murder is usually the default approach, with a fall back of manslaughter if there's not enough evidence for premeditation of any interpretation.

[booder]

Just reading about transporting these refridgerated containers and it is possible they can be plugged in on your behalf on the ferry, and it is a service they often provide free.   

Maybe there was never any intention to put the cooling on?   

I should imagine the poor buggers were dead long before they were put on the ferry.

The fridges are hooked up to the ships electric in preference to having the trailers diesel motor running for the duration of the crossing.

[tikay]

It now emerges that all the deceased were Chinese nationals.

[RED-DOG]

I've never understood, or agreed with this notion of punishing people for the consequences of their actions rather than the actions themselves.

Example:

Punch someone and he gets a black eye = Assault charge, fine, maybe suspended sentence.

Punch someone and he falls over, hits his head on the kerb and dies = Prison.


Its the same in all situations.

Throw your telly out of your bedroom window. It lands on the pavement breaking the telly or hits someone on the head and kills them.

Speeding = Fine and 3 points vs Causing death by dangerous driving. Etc etc...


My point is, the crime is exactly the same in all cases, the intent is the same in all cases. Why should the punishment be different?

 

[Doobs]

Just reading about transporting these refridgerated containers and it is possible they can be plugged in on your behalf on the ferry, and it is a service they often provide free.   

Maybe there was never any intention to put the cooling on?   

I should imagine the poor buggers were dead long before they were put on the ferry.

The fridges are hooked up to the ships electric in preference to having the trailers diesel motor running for the duration of the crossing.

I was suggesting that it is possible that the fridge wasn't hooked up on the way to the ferry, and somebody has plugged it in by accident.   Something like an incorrectly filled in form, or someone (new?) just assuming it needed to be hooked up.

The driver may well have realised that it shouldn't have been on, hence the stop in a quiet area soon after the pick up.   It appears likely that he called the emergency services. 

All speculation obviously, and it may well be that the plan was always to open in that area and it is also possible the driver was just suspicious and decided to check his load.

[tikay]

Just reading about transporting these refridgerated containers and it is possible they can be plugged in on your behalf on the ferry, and it is a service they often provide free.   

Maybe there was never any intention to put the cooling on?   

I should imagine the poor buggers were dead long before they were put on the ferry.

The fridges are hooked up to the ships electric in preference to having the trailers diesel motor running for the duration of the crossing.

I was suggesting that it is possible that the fridge wasn't hooked up on the way to the ferry, and somebody has plugged it in by accident.   Something like an incorrectly filled in form, or someone (new?) just assuming it needed to be hooked up.

The driver may well have realised that it shouldn't have been on, hence the stop in a quiet area soon after the pick up.   It appears likely that he called the emergency services. 

All speculation obviously, and it may well be that the plan was always to open in that area and it is also possible the driver was just suspicious and decided to check his load.

That is my reading too.

It's been repeatedly reported that the police were informed by Ambulance men, & I'm thinking that the driver realised the refrigeration was turned on when it should not have been, stopped to check & discovered the horrific scene, then dialled 999.

All speculation of course.

I do find it quite surprising & possibly unfortunate that the identity of the driver is being so widely & openly reported. It's entirely possible that he is 100% innocent. Not saying he is, or is not, but it's possible.

[booder]

Just reading about transporting these refridgerated containers and it is possible they can be plugged in on your behalf on the ferry, and it is a service they often provide free.   

Maybe there was never any intention to put the cooling on?   

I should imagine the poor buggers were dead long before they were put on the ferry.

The fridges are hooked up to the ships electric in preference to having the trailers diesel motor running for the duration of the crossing.

I was suggesting that it is possible that the fridge wasn't hooked up on the way to the ferry, and somebody has plugged it in by accident.   Something like an incorrectly filled in form, or someone (new?) just assuming it needed to be hooked up.

The driver may well have realised that it shouldn't have been on, hence the stop in a quiet area soon after the pick up.   It appears likely that he called the emergency services. 

All speculation obviously, and it may well be that the plan was always to open in that area and it is also possible the driver was just suspicious and decided to check his load.

If the fridge had been switched on by accident , and , if there were people alive inside,at some point they would have made enough noise to alert the stevedores on the ferry.There are people coming and going all the time on the cargo decks.