Vagueness and the Aftermath - A sporadic diary

[RED-DOG]

I was in Amsterdam over the weekend and saw a program about the Roma living in Nieuwegijn (fairly sure it was Nieuwegijn, I came in 15 minutes after the start of the show).

It brought up some interesting points.

In shorts the story went that; There are around 500 Roma living there (total population about 20k people), and they lived there in peace and harmony for a fair while (15-20 years). They all live in houses as they were not permitted to live in mobile homes when they came there.
The peaceful situation has changed since one of the Roma was attacked (unprovoked) by a local group of kids. Since then there have been several "retaliations" (words of the journalist reporting on it) by the Roma on people directly, and indicerctly, involved in the attack and things have escalated since then and there is trouble brewing.
The council is now taking a hard "You either integrate or you bugger off" line and this has not really gone down well with the Roma whom want to continue to life their own life. They want to get along with everybody but don't want their traditions to go away (an understandable point of view IMO).

what did come out in this was that the 500 Roma who stayed there had a 100% unemployment rate. According to the Roma spokesperson none of them were in traditional gainful employment (working for a boss or running their own official business), all of them were on benefits and all of them were struggling while on benefits. they have massive rental arrears and all that.
They also mentioned that a Roma tradition is that the kids will be taken out of school when they are 14 or 15 years because, as one of the Roma parents said; "They have to learn how to take care of their family from that age and learn how to run a household", this would of course not help them find traditional employment and essentially means that, as a group, they would not "progress".

I found it interesting that he did seem keen on the idea (when suggested to him by the presenter) of his, now 11 years old, daughter one day becoming a lawyer or judge or something like that but he did not want her to stay in school after the age of 14 as "It is tradition that they get married when they are 14 and you do not break with tradition". (that tradition is one of the things now banned by the Dutch government apparently, I don't know if it was ever really permitted)

I was just wondering what your thoughts on this sort of situation was and what the situation in the UK was....would you say "Well, I've been struggling to make a living for 2 years now and have rent arrears coming up the wazoo so I'd best get myself a job"? How do you feel about this "They should get married when 14 and leave school at that age to learn other things" tradition?

You are obviously a very clever and articulate man and the lovely Mrs Red is of similar, admirable, ilk. (As were the Roma featured in this program. They all came across as intelligent, caring people who had a tough time finding a balance between being Roma and living in Dutch society)
Would you have considered having one of your daughters go to uni to become, say, a lawyer if she had said that that's what she wanted? Did your girls go to school until they were 18, or did they leave at a younger age?

I was genuinely fascinated by the program as I thought I had already picked up one or two things about Roma from your self and the fantastic books of your father but it turns out I know F all and find it rather difficult to see the point of view that these people were putting forward.
It is a bit baffling to hear of a 100% unemployment rate within a community, especially when they are all struggling to make ends meet. The "getting married at 14" thing, well that's not uncommon in many a culture really so I don't neccesarily have a problem with that but at what point should you let go of a tradition and say "It would benefit us as a community if our kids did go to uni "?


A bit of a warbling question, maybe but I thought I'd best ask before I forget and then really don't know what I meant to ask (I am sure there was more and maybe it will come to me but I'm dead tired now so might ask later) 

Blimey. I need a little time to digest all of this before I answer. When I do, don't judge too harshly, and please be aware that I don't speak for everyone.

Gypsies and Gorgers may look the same on the outside, but inside we are different people with different values.

[RED-DOG]

I will try to work through your post a bit at a time by editing my reply as I go along.


I was in Amsterdam over the weekend and saw a program about the Roma living in Nieuwegijn

I don't know where Nieuwegijn is and I have no first hand knowedge of the Roma who live there.



In shorts the story went that; There are around 500 Roma living there (total population about 20k people), and they lived there in peace and harmony for a fair while (15-20 years). They all live in houses as they were not permitted to live in mobile homes when they came there.

This part doesn't make sense.

Where were the Roma living before they came to Nieuwegijn?

Why would they go there if they had to move into houses?

Do mobile homes exist in Nieuwegijn? If so, who is allowed to live in them, is there a separate law for the Roma?

Do all the Roma live together?

I can't believe that 500 people of any race could just roll up somewhere and "Live in peace and harmony" for 15/20 years.

BTW Boldie, I don't expect you to answer these questions mate, I'm just saying...




"The peaceful situation has changed since one of the Roma was attacked (unprovoked) by a local group of kids. Since then there have been several "retaliations" (words of the journalist reporting on it) by the Roma on people directly, and indicerctly, involved in the attack and things have escalated since then and there is trouble brewing."

Are all 500 of the Roma responsible for the retaliation attacks, or just a few?


The council is now taking a hard "You either integrate or you bugger off"

What has integration got to do with the attacks?

Does this apply to all 500 Roma or just the ones involved in the retaliation?

What would integration entail?

Does the council really have the power to blame and punish a whole race of people for the actions of individuals?



what did come out in this was that the 500 Roma who stayed there had a 100% unemployment rate. According to the Roma spokesperson none of them were in traditional gainful employment (working for a boss or running their own official business), all of them were on benefits and all of them were struggling while on benefits. they have massive rental arrears and all that.

"Roma spokesperson" Who would that be?

Again I don't believe that this one statement can be true for all 500 people, however I do think it probably suits the majority of the Roma to claim benefits and to run up rental arrears for houses that they don't want to live in. Lying to the authorities wouldn't be unusual, in fact you might even say it's "Traditional"



They also mentioned that a Roma tradition is that the kids will be taken out of school when they are 14 or 15 years because, as one of the Roma parents said; "They have to learn how to take care of their family from that age and learn how to run a household", this would of course not help them find traditional employment and essentially means that, as a group, they would not "progress".

That's wrong. 14 or 15 would be far too late (My own children left school at 11) Gypsy children don't start to learn how to do things when they leave school, they learn from birth onwards. The reason they are taken out of school early is to protect them from the influences of their Gorger peers and to allow them to realise that they are different. That under age sex, drugs, drink etc is not for "What everyone does". That the family comes first, and that marrage is a serious business.
 

I don't understand why this would not help them to find traditional employment (Traditional to Gypsies that is) Quite the contrary.


"As group they would not progress"

Define progress.

Sorry if this sounds defensive or argumentative (I know I have a tendency to do that) I don't mean it to be, honest.

More to follow.


I found it interesting that he did seem keen on the idea (when suggested to him by the presenter) of his, now 11 years old, daughter one day becoming a lawyer or judge or something like that but he did not want her to stay in school after the age of 14 as "It is tradition that they get married when they are 14 and you do not break with tradition". (that tradition is one of the things now banned by the Dutch government apparently, I don't know if it was ever really permitted)

Can't comment on this save to say that I have never heard of a get married at 14 tradition, I think he's lying to the presenter. Gypsy boys and girls do tend to marry young but that's just because they mature quickly.


Would you have considered having one of your daughters go to uni to become, say, a lawyer if she had said that that's what she wanted?

By all means. I don't want to hinder my kids or to stifle them. They all have a good education and have had/still have the opportunity to take further education should they so desire.


I know F all and find it rather difficult to see the point of view that these people were putting forward.

I'm not quite sure what it is you don't understand but will be glad to try to clarify if you ask a specific question.

I don't think I've made a very good job of explaining things here, but I guess part of what I'm trying to say is don't believe everything you hear, especially from Gypsies, (Yes, I am aware of the irony) local authorities or TV presenters.

The other point I'm trying to make is that Gypsies are individuals, and yet people readily accept sweeping generalisations.

I genuinely appreciate your interest and your questions, although I'm sure that my bumbling attempts at answers have left you more confused than ever.

Still, it's a start.

[AlexMartin]

Red, I've spent a far part of today watching a stoat zig-zagging about in the field beside Ma & Pa Paradise's house. I'm dumbfounded as to what it was hunting. The field's been grazed nearly to the bare earth, there's nowhere for mice, voals, shrews etc to hide & the rabbits are all in the longer fields. The ground is frozen which means the worms will be down deep, so I can't think what it was about.

I did a search online & found this:

Stoats don't like to be out in the open and so tend to hunt along ditches, hedgerows and walls or through meadows and marshes. They search each likely area systematically, often running in a zig zag pattern. All but the largest prey is killed by a single bite to the back of the neck.

The bold bit describes the way it was running about, but the italic bit is why I was confused by its behaviour, there's a lot of birds of prey around here as well, which you'd think would keep it near shelter - it was a good 40 yards from the nearest bit of long grass.

Any ideas what it can have been after?

We got a good enough view to see the black tail tip & the white chest - so are confident it was a stoat.

I don't really know Rod.

Stoats and weasels use their sense of smell as their primairy prey locating tool, and working a zig zag pattern is common to all scent hunters when trying to pick up a spoor, but the open ground thing is really unusual.

I've often observed stoats and weasels in the wild, and I've never seen them do anything on open ground except dash across it as quickly as possible.

I wonder if this stoat was an escaped pet or semi-tame. The hunting instinct in mustilids, even hand reared tame ones kept as pets is very strong. Weasels, stoats, skunks, mink, otter etc often manage quite well if they are returned (Or escape) to the wild, but I would expect their defence mechanisms and instints to be impaired, hence (In this case) the lack of fear in open spaces.

could have been tracking a hare/myxied rabbit? i know they do track them for long distances.

[RED-DOG]

As we are the same age Tom it's the same. I was working for the Michelin company at the time I trebled my wages from my previous job as an apprentice (I had to give it up to bring more money into the household coffers). £60 a week. I gave mum £20 spent £20 and saved £20. Then they moved me to another department where the pay was better then gave us all a pay rise making it another £18 a week. Fookin ell I didn't know what to do with all the spare money. 

Then within a year i was married with a mortgage and that was that. 

Are we the same age? My God! You must have had an easy life.

[Nakor]

East 17 - Stay Another Day.

However it was probably the dawn of the best year of my life.  A year of raving and 2nd year of Uni.  The year I finally grew up in so many ways.  The year I saw Oasis in Norwich.  My golf handicap was back down to 3 and a bit and could now give up.  I was single for the first time in 4 years.  My Dad recovered from his stroke and I proceeded to piss away all he had worked so hard to give me.

The song means nothing, but the year was probably the most important of them all, I would think I learnt more that year then any other.  I am fairly certain I knew East 17 were shit the year before.

[Rod Paradise]

could have been tracking a hare/myxied rabbit? i know they do track them for long distances.

Could be, although we've never seen a hare in that field (too many dogwalkers as it's on the edge of the town), and it's so bare we hardly ever see a rabbit in it. Thankfully the myxy isn't in the area, although I saw a myxied rabbit a few miles away last Monday, the population of rabbits is high at the moment, so I'd expect an outbreak soon.

The dog went absolutely nuts tracking the stoat when my Dad took her into the field yesterday.

[Kev B]

As we are the same age Tom it's the same. I was working for the Michelin company at the time I trebled my wages from my previous job as an apprentice (I had to give it up to bring more money into the household coffers). £60 a week. I gave mum £20 spent £20 and saved £20. Then they moved me to another department where the pay was better then gave us all a pay rise making it another £18 a week. Fookin ell I didn't know what to do with all the spare money. 

Then within a year i was married with a mortgage and that was that. 

Are we the same age? My God! You must have had an easy life.

I'll take that as a compliment I think. 

[Kev B]

BTW this beauty landed on our bird table last week and I managed to get a snap on my camera. Thought you would appreciate it.

Click to see full-size image.

[boldie]

Crickey, I knew my post was convoluted at best  but yeah didn't go through it in the most concise way

I will try to work through your post a bit at a time by editing my reply as I go along.


I was in Amsterdam over the weekend and saw a program about the Roma living in Nieuwegijn

I don't know where Nieuwegijn is and I have no first hand knowedge of the Roma who live there.



In shorts the story went that; There are around 500 Roma living there (total population about 20k people), and they lived there in peace and harmony for a fair while (15-20 years). They all live in houses as they were not permitted to live in mobile homes when they came there.

This part doesn't make sense.

Where were the Roma living before they came to Nieuwegijn?

they travelled around and settled in Nieuwegijn in the 70's and late 80's (according to the program)

Why would they go there if they had to move into houses?

They lived in caravans for a while but were told after a few years they either had to move on or move into a house. From my understanding (and the way the program mentioned it) the council advised them that they would not get any benefits from the council unless they moved into a house..this included housing benefits as well..so essentially they were told that they'd get a free house and free money on top and their kids could continue going to school and all that. I assume that that, and the fact that they had already lived there for a few years so were relatively settled that persuaded some of them to settle there (I have no doubt that some of them moved on as well when they were presented with that choice.

Do mobile homes exist in Nieuwegijn? If so, who is allowed to live in them, is there a separate law for the Roma?

No, I think not.

Do all the Roma live together?

I can't believe that 500 people of any race could just roll up somewhere and "Live in peace and harmony" for 15/20 years.

Well, obviously it started with a smaller community but it now consists of 500 people (again according to the program)

BTW Boldie, I don't expect you to answer these questions mate, I'm just saying



"The peaceful situation has changed since one of the Roma was attacked (unprovoked) by a local group of kids. Since then there have been several "retaliations" (words of the journalist reporting on it) by the Roma on people directly, and indicerctly, involved in the attack and things have escalated since then and there is trouble brewing."

Are all 500 of the Roma responsible for the retaliation attacks, or just a few?

Obviously only a few however the way with these things is that the 500 are being held responsible by quite a few of the Dutch people in Nieuwegijn ( so much so that it is now the prevalent political attitude in the council) because they are part of the same minority (admittedly I didn't word the question correctly, apologies)

The council is now taking a hard "You either integrate or you bugger off"

What has integration got to do with the attacks?

The Roma are percieved as "not being part of the greater Dutch society" because they don't hold down conventional jobs.

Does this apply to all 500 Roma or just the ones involved in the retaliation?

What would integration entail?

Does the council really have the power to blame and punish a whole race of people for the actions of individuals?

This is of course the really interesting part. All 500 Roma would be included in any legislation as that is the way these things go.
Integration entails what is always entails when dealing with a minority; learn the language, get a normal job and become more like us. (That is after all what is ussually meant) The Roma in this case seem to be more isolated than other minorities though when it comes to dealing with the other locals. they keep more to themselves than other minorities and are therefore more unfamiliar than other minorities and this doesn't seem to do them any favours. (You can't hate a complete minority if you know and like one or two people from that minority...)

what did come out in this was that the 500 Roma who stayed there had a 100% unemployment rate. According to the Roma spokesperson none of them were in traditional gainful employment (working for a boss or running their own official business), all of them were on benefits and all of them were struggling while on benefits. they have massive rental arrears and all that.

"Roma spokesperson" Who would that be?

This was a Roma lady from some sort of Roma organisation and she seemed to be held in some regard by other Roma they were talking to. Don't know how official that would make her.

Again I don't believe that this one statement can be true for all 500 people, however I do think it probably suits the majority of the Roma to claim benefits and to run up rental arrears for houses that they don't want to live in. Lying to the authorities wouldn't be unusual, in fact you might even say it's "Traditional"



They also mentioned that a Roma tradition is that the kids will be taken out of school when they are 14 or 15 years because, as one of the Roma parents said; "They have to learn how to take care of their family from that age and learn how to run a household", this would of course not help them find traditional employment and essentially means that, as a group, they would not "progress".

That's wrong. 14 or 15 would be far too late (My own children left school at 11) Gypsy children don't start to learn how to do things when they leave school, they learn from birth onwards. The reason they are taken out of school early is to protect them from the influences of their Gorger peers and to allow them to realise that they are different. That under age sex, drugs, drink etc is not for "What everyone does". That the family comes first, and that marrage is a serious business.
 

I don't understand why this would not help them to find traditional employment (Traditional to Gypsies that is) Quite the contrary.


"As group they would not progress"
Define progress.

Progress, in this case, to me would be become more understood by the general society by having a few public spokes persons..a few "faces" so to speak. In the same way that having famous black people on television helped white people become "accustomed" to seeing black people. (if you know what I mean)

Sorry if this sounds defensive or argumentative (I know I have a tendency to do that) I don't mean it to be, honest.

Don't worry, definitely not taking in that way.

More to follow.


I found it interesting that he did seem keen on the idea (when suggested to him by the presenter) of his, now 11 years old, daughter one day becoming a lawyer or judge or something like that but he did not want her to stay in school after the age of 14 as "It is tradition that they get married when they are 14 and you do not break with tradition". (that tradition is one of the things now banned by the Dutch government apparently, I don't know if it was ever really permitted)

Can't comment on this save to say that I have never heard of a get married at 14 tradition, I think he's lying to the presenter. Gypsy boys and girls do tend to marry young but that's just because they mature quickly.


Would you have considered having one of your daughters go to uni to become, say, a lawyer if she had said that that's what she wanted?

By all means. I don't want to hinder my kids or to stifle them. They all have a good education and have had/still have the opportunity to take further education should they so desire.

OK, I was wondering if it was indeed a general tradition or just the way things are done within the Roma community.

I know F all and find it rather difficult to see the point of view that these people were putting forward.

I'm not quite sure what it is you don't understand but will be glad to try to clarify if you ask a specific question.

I don't think I've made a very good job of explaining things here, but I guess part of what I'm trying to say is don't believe everything you hear, especially from Gypsies, (Yes, I am aware of the irony) local authorities or TV presenters.

The other point I'm trying to make is that Gypsies are individuals, and yet people readily accept sweeping generalisations.

I genuinely appreciate your interest and your questions, although I'm sure that my bumbling attempts at answers have left you more confused than ever.

Still, it's a start.

If I had a specific question I'd ask it and phrase it better than I did, just some general things I wanted your opinion on as the program baffled me  ....I think


anyways, thanks for taking the time to answer it

[booder]

      Boldie

[boldie]

     Boldie

Hi mate.

[booder]

saw this little fella this morning

[booder]

and then a likkle wobinwedbwest this afternoon(sorry for the blurriness)

[tikay]

saw this little fella this morning

Nice pic Boo. Is it a Goldfinch?

[booder]

saw this little fella this morning

Nice pic Boo. Is it a Goldfinch?

its a yellow birdy,thats as far as my ornithological knowledge goes.Red will probably know.