Vagueness and the Aftermath - A sporadic diary

[Laxie]

Depends on which side yer looking at it from.   

[RED-DOG]

I decided to go on the bike.

Downside: The dreaded FNR.

Upside: I get to stop and admire the first snowdrops.

(Mid Feb, temp -2° How do they manage to bloom in conditions like these)

Click to see full-size image.

[EvilPie]

I decided to go on the bike.

Downside: The dreaded FNR.

Upside: I get to stop and admire the first snowdrops.

(Mid Feb, temp -2° How do they manage to bloom in conditions like these)

Click to see full-size image.

You're way behind the times Tom.

They were out 2 weeks ago down our way

[RED-DOG]

You're way behind the times Tom.

They were out 2 weeks ago down our way

Really? Wow!

They may have been out a little earlier here, but these are the first I've seen.

[rex008]

The wife dragged me out for a walk at a place near Barnsley last Saturday (Feb 13), and the snowdrops were out there. It's not always grim up north .

[GreekStein]

Hi Tom,

How did poker go this weekend?

[RED-DOG]

Hi Tom,

How did poker go this weekend?

I ran worse than "Stumpy" Oleg McNoleg in the Market Harborough marathon.

[tikay]

'ave a word Tone...


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_west/8525522.stm

Perverse.

[tikay]

I thought one of the interesting aspects of the programme the other day was when they were talking about marrying "country" girls.  If it isn't too personal a question Tom would you allow any of your girls to marry a "country" boy and is that a widespread view within the Gypsy community?  I am part of a mixed race marriage myself and I find it fascinating how different we can be but also how similar we can be if that makes sense.  So many things that we as British people take for granted such as meeting in pubs, drinking alcohol are totally alien to my wife and her friends and I honestly had no idea until I was exposed to her culture.

There were two groups in the programme, Irish Travellers and Romany Gypsies. Both have ethnic status. Gypsies were finally recognised as an ethic minority in 1989, and Irish Travellers in 2000.

Irish Travellers don't speak the Romany language, and would refer to outsiders as "Country People" Gypsies would refer to outsiders as "Gorgers"-"Gadje"

Having cleared that up, your question is equally relevant to either group.

"Would you allow any of your girls to marry a "country" boy and is that a widespread view within the Gypsy community?"

It's not a case of what I would and wouldn't allow. (This is going to be really tough to explain).

During their early childhood, my kids lived by the rules that I laid down. These rules were not many, (I wanted them to experience as many things as possible during childhood) basically, they were these.

I won't say no unless I have to, but if I say it, I mean it. No means no. End of. (Kids are much happier like this, they don't have to go through hours (Sometimes days) of crying and whinging trying to get something they may or may not get. They ask, I say yes or no. Simples.

Everyone must be aware of the affect their actions will have on the rest of the family - Hurt one, hurt all.

Everyone must contribute - Everyone is important to the well-being of the whole, and no one rides for free.

Blood is thicker than water. Family comes first. Look after each other. When your mother and I are no longer around, you will always have someone to turn to.

You can't do anything bad enough to make me stop loving you.

Be proud of what you are.



These things sort of start out as rules, but end up as teachings.

By the age of 5, Gypsy children will know what's what. By 10 they are shouldering considerable responsibility and helping to teach the younger ones. By 16, they are adult.

My girls are all adult now. I don't impose any rules on them. They are free to do with their lives as they will. If they are happy, I am happy.

They still ask for my permission do things or to go places, and they still do as I say, but that's out of respect, not because I force them. (One of my girls is 27 and has been smoking for years, but she has never smoked a cigarette in my presence. Of course, I wouldn't say anything if she did, but she would feel uncomfortable)

Now comes the awkward to explain part. (This applies especially to girls, not quite so much to boys)

She would be free to marry an outsider, a Gorger. But she would do so knowing that he would never be truly truly accepted by her community.

If he had anything about him at all, the Gypsy community would welcome him into the fold, and they would treat him well out of respect for her, or respect for me, but they would never be able to take him as one of their own.

They would know that their values are not his values.

They would never be able to pick him out amongst a sea of strangers and exchange a glance that speaks of a thousand years of shared experience.

They would know a million things that he didn't know.


The vast majority of Gypsy and Traveller girls marry within the community, because they want to.

Can you really do that Tom? If so, how? What are the signs, the clues?

[RED-DOG]

They would never be able to pick him out amongst a sea of strangers and exchange a glance that speaks of a thousand years of shared experience.

Can you really do that Tom? If so, how? What are the signs, the clues?

Most of the time, yes, we can. How? I don't know exactly. It's probably a combination of things that, until now, I haven't really thought about.

The initial alert is almost certainly a body language thing, which leads us, almost subconsciously, to look for other clues.

Now, think back, have you ever seen someone and thought. "Hmm.. Gypsy or Gypsies"? If so, the clues were probably pretty darn obvious. You know what I'm talking about, the way they dress, the way they speak, the way they act...  

Well I think we see the same things, but we're a 1000 times more sensitive to them.

I don't really know if that's the answer of course, I'm just guessing.

I wonder...  Are there any other ethnic groups (Jews perhaps) out there who can tell us if it's the same for them?

[Geo the Sarge]

They would never be able to pick him out amongst a sea of strangers and exchange a glance that speaks of a thousand years of shared experience.

Can you really do that Tom? If so, how? What are the signs, the clues?

Most of the time, yes, we can. How? I don't know exactly. It's probably a combination of things that, until now, I haven't really thought about.

The initial alert is almost certainly a body language thing, which leads us, almost subconsciously, to look for other clues.

Now, think back, have you ever seen someone and thought. "Hmm.. Gypsy or Gypsies"? If so, the clues were probably pretty darn obvious. You know what I'm talking about, the way they dress, the way they speak, the way they act...  

Well I think we see the same things, but we're a 1000 times more sensitive to them.

I don't really know if that's the answer of course, I'm just guessing.

I wonder...  Are there any other ethnic groups (Jews perhaps) out there who can tell us if it's the same for them?

It happens quite a bit with soldiers/servicemen Tom. I often meet/see/hear somone for the first time and without knowing them previously have an "inkling" that they are a serviceman.

Geo

[lazaroonie]

They would never be able to pick him out amongst a sea of strangers and exchange a glance that speaks of a thousand years of shared experience.

Can you really do that Tom? If so, how? What are the signs, the clues?

Most of the time, yes, we can. How? I don't know exactly. It's probably a combination of things that, until now, I haven't really thought about.

The initial alert is almost certainly a body language thing, which leads us, almost subconsciously, to look for other clues.

Now, think back, have you ever seen someone and thought. "Hmm.. Gypsy or Gypsies"? If so, the clues were probably pretty darn obvious. You know what I'm talking about, the way they dress, the way they speak, the way they act...  

Well I think we see the same things, but we're a 1000 times more sensitive to them.

I don't really know if that's the answer of course, I'm just guessing.

I wonder...  Are there any other ethnic groups (Jews perhaps) out there who can tell us if it's the same for them?

It happens quite a bit with soldiers/servicemen Tom. I often meet/see/hear somone for the first time and without knowing them previously have an "inkling" that they are a serviceman.

Geo

like that guy in the smoking shelter at DTD ?? I knew he was a soldier as well, cos the first thing he said to me was 'im a soldier'

could have been worse, could've been a bad beat story, never mind, here comes Geo, bet he's got one....

[RED-DOG]

It happens quite a bit with soldiers/servicemen Tom. I often meet/see/hear somone for the first time and without knowing them previously have an "inkling" that they are a serviceman.

Geo

Precisely Geo, You're picking up signals, you don't really know how you're doing it, but you're doing it.

Now imagine if you had been a serviceman since birth, and so had all your family, and your friends.....

[technolog]

Tom you made me aware (in my ignorance) that there are two (or possibly a lot more?) types of 'Gypsy', Irish Travellers and Romany Gypsies. I was wondering if there is any animosity or indeed fraternity (or indeed both) between the two races (if that's the right word).

[RED-DOG]

Tom you made me aware (in my ignorance) that there are two (or possibly a lot more?) types of 'Gypsy', Irish Travellers and Romany Gypsies. I was wondering if there is any animosity or indeed fraternity (or indeed both) between the two races (if that's the right word).

Occasional animosity toward each other, but usually unity against everyone else.