Vagueness and the Aftermath - A sporadic diary

[Karabiner]

Watching a cooking programme where they are going on about ethnic food & it occurred to me I'd never asked you, is there a tradition/style of Gypsy cooking?

We've covered this before Rod, but traditionally Gypsies cook a lot of stews and broths, anything that you can buy cheap, or "Liberate" from an adjacent fiels, put into a 2 gallon pot and cook over an open fire.

A typical dish would be bacon bones, cabbage and taters.

My mam could always seem to find a sympatheic butcher to do us a ten bob wrap up. This usually consisted of all the little, "Too small to sell" fatty off cuts from dressed joints. Fantastic they were, she used to fry them up for breakfast. You got a big doorstep of bread dipped in the hot fat to use as a plate, and then you had what ever came out of the frying pan when it was your turn. An average portion might contain bite-sized pieces of a burst sausage, a bit of steak, some bacon, belly pork, and breast if mutton, all fried until they were crispy.

We also had huge rice-puddings and a stick-to-you-rips dish called Joey Gray.

My daughter cooked some traditional "On the fire" dishes at an exhibition we did last summer. Karabina sampled just about everything as I recall.

I was there and it was a lovely afternoon which I will always remember as I have a great photo.

I had a big plate of some 'taters and onion with bread and butter recommended by Tom's daughter 'Zelley that was delicious and the lamb stew that I had for desert was pretty damn good too.

I reckon the bacon bones must have been the best as the kids had eaten it all before we got there.
 

[RED-DOG]

Me, Ralph, the girls & the food.

Click to see full-size image.

[MANTIS01]

I know for instance, that if I were filling out a housing form, or registering with the dentist, that I wouldn't tick the box that said "Gypsy".   

The rest of your reply made so much sense that this stood out - why not?

You don't think that some people will treat you with caution or suspicion, even open hostility when they know you're a Gypsy?

On the other hand, do you think that the same people will re-assess their opinions after having dealt with you if you never tell them you are a Gypsy?

Some do, (but it takes quite a while) and some don't.

So with the ones that do, you reap the benefits....   eventually. With the ones who don't, you get the backlash instantly.

In most situations, the risk is too big to take.

A surprising number of those that do re-assess decide that you're OK, but probably not a real Gypsy

Doesn't anticipating hostility from people who deal with Gypsies exhibit the same level of discriminatory mindset as people anticipating trouble when dealing with Gypsies? In both cases you're not allowing individuals to prove themselves independent from the stereotype.

Yes Sir. It undoubtedly does. But when your anticipating a poke in the eye, you blink.

Sigh.

I was going to respond along the lines taken by boldie and mantis, and then you popped up with that poke in the eye line...
Brilliant!

It's the process of anticipation which is at the heart of the problem. You shouldn't anticipate what somebody is going to be like or what their values are if you don't know them. All people should be viewed equally until such a time as their behaviour changes that view. So I understand Red getting frustrated that people anticipate what Gypsies will be like based on the negative stereotype. But people do seem to have this nasty habit of prejudging one another. If we do want to rid the world of that habit and attack the root of the problem I don't think anticipating your dentist will have a negative attitude towards you is the way to go. You're kinda putting out into the world the same negative anticipation you resent in others. The dentist is prob well chilled out about ethnicity issues for all we know.

[RED-DOG]

I know for instance, that if I were filling out a housing form, or registering with the dentist, that I wouldn't tick the box that said "Gypsy".  

The rest of your reply made so much sense that this stood out - why not?

You don't think that some people will treat you with caution or suspicion, even open hostility when they know you're a Gypsy?

On the other hand, do you think that the same people will re-assess their opinions after having dealt with you if you never tell them you are a Gypsy?

Some do, (but it takes quite a while) and some don't.

So with the ones that do, you reap the benefits....   eventually. With the ones who don't, you get the backlash instantly.

In most situations, the risk is too big to take.

A surprising number of those that do re-assess decide that you're OK, but probably not a real Gypsy

Doesn't anticipating hostility from people who deal with Gypsies exhibit the same level of discriminatory mindset as people anticipating trouble when dealing with Gypsies? In both cases you're not allowing individuals to prove themselves independent from the stereotype.

Yes Sir. It undoubtedly does. But when your anticipating a poke in the eye, you blink.

Sigh.

I was going to respond along the lines taken by boldie and mantis, and then you popped up with that poke in the eye line...
Brilliant!

It's the process of anticipation which is at the heart of the problem. You shouldn't anticipate what somebody is going to be like or what their values are if you don't know them. All people should be viewed equally until such a time as their behaviour changes that view. So I understand Red getting frustrated that people anticipate what Gypsies will be like based on the negative stereotype. But people do seem to have this nasty habit of prejudging one another. If we do want to rid the world of that habit and attack the root of the problem I don't think anticipating your dentist will have a negative attitude towards you is the way to go. You're kinda putting out into the world the same negative anticipation you resent in others. The dentist is prob well chilled out about ethnicity issues for all we know.

I understand where you are coming from, but take a look at the comments on any public forum where Gypsies happen to be mentioned, (The ones on the Channel 4 website were appalling) and you will see that the majority of people are prejudiced, and that's a fact.

I would love to be the one who breaks all the barriers down, and I do my best, but sadly, I have my priorities.

You think it's impossible, or even unlikely that an educated man of medicine would treat a Gypsy child differently?

Think again.

[highmile]

Well my experience of Gypsies / Travellers has been very varied.

My first contact was with a guy who swore he was from pure Romany stock; lovely guy, good friend and his family were good as gold. They had settled on a council estate and integrated with those around them, the kids were just like the rest of us and went through school like we did.

Where I was brought up the were actually brass plates on the pub doors 'No Travellers'. There was a site very close to where I lived but I didn't know that for years, I never had any contact with those that lived there and obviously no trouble, One evening my mate came into the pub and introduced me to his new chum, I shook his hand and he immediately told me that he was from the site and a traveller but he was not like most of them and only wanted to have a drink and a good evening. He turned out to be a really nice guy and I wondered what all the fuss was about.

Years later having moved to a 'decent' place to bring up my family I again became aware that there was a Traveller presence, both settled and those on sites. These people are barred from most of the pubs in the area and most of the 'locals' (many have moved here because they think they are posh!) really wish that they would move on. The problems seems to be with their behaviour in the pubs, the typical scenario goes something like this:

A couple of Travellers go into the pub, when they are served they call up the rest of the 'clan' who turn up en masse. They spend a fortune and become very loud and upset the regulars and one of two things happen:

1/ They start a fight either amongst themselves or with the locals

2/ They drink and spend so much that at closing time they believe that they now 'own' the pub and the standard statement is 'we will tell you when we've had enough' they will then kick off if refused more drink.

We speak about how immigrants don't want to integrate but want to reap the benefits of this country, I don't think that Gypsies and Travellers are quite the same as they are happy to stay outside 'society' but would contend the argument that 'we', 'society', should put ourselves out to accommodate those that just want to take the benefits without contributing.

Just an observation really but hopefully food for thought and discussion.

[thetank]

 I also suspect that you'd get more new-age travellers identify themselves as Gypsy/IrishTraveller (when they're not) than actual Gypsies. Which would skew/invalidate the results anyway.

Another problem would be James 'MC' Atkin ticking the box for black and skewing those results.

[RED-DOG]

I know for instance, that if I were filling out a housing form, or registering with the dentist, that I wouldn't tick the box that said "Gypsy".  

The rest of your reply made so much sense that this stood out - why not?

You don't think that some people will treat you with caution or suspicion, even open hostility when they know you're a Gypsy?

On the other hand, do you think that the same people will re-assess their opinions after having dealt with you if you never tell them you are a Gypsy?

Some do, (but it takes quite a while) and some don't.

So with the ones that do, you reap the benefits....   eventually. With the ones who don't, you get the backlash instantly.

In most situations, the risk is too big to take.

A surprising number of those that do re-assess decide that you're OK, but probably not a real Gypsy

Doesn't anticipating hostility from people who deal with Gypsies exhibit the same level of discriminatory mindset as people anticipating trouble when dealing with Gypsies? In both cases you're not allowing individuals to prove themselves independent from the stereotype.

Yes Sir. It undoubtedly does. But when your anticipating a poke in the eye, you blink.

Sigh.

I was going to respond along the lines taken by boldie and mantis, and then you popped up with that poke in the eye line...
Brilliant!

It's the process of anticipation which is at the heart of the problem. You shouldn't anticipate what somebody is going to be like or what their values are if you don't know them. All people should be viewed equally until such a time as their behaviour changes that view. So I understand Red getting frustrated that people anticipate what Gypsies will be like based on the negative stereotype. But people do seem to have this nasty habit of prejudging one another. If we do want to rid the world of that habit and attack the root of the problem I don't think anticipating your dentist will have a negative attitude towards you is the way to go. You're kinda putting out into the world the same negative anticipation you resent in others. The dentist is prob well chilled out about ethnicity issues for all we know.

I understand where you are coming from, but take a look at the comments on any public forum where Gypsies happen to be mentioned, (The ones on the Channel 4 website were appalling) and you will see that the majority of people are prejudiced, and that's a fact.

I would love to be the one who breaks all the barriers down, and I do my best, but sadly, I have my priorities.

You think it's impossible, or even unlikely that an educated man of medicine would treat a Gypsy child differently?

Think again.

Looking back at this post, it reads like I have a downer on the public at large. Nothing could be further from the truth. I'm a big believer in the innate "Goodness" of people in general, and I do self identify, but usually after I've had a little time to test the water.

[RED-DOG]

Well my experience of Gypsies / Travellers has been very varied.

My first contact was with a guy who swore he was from pure Romany stock; lovely guy, good friend and his family were good as gold. They had settled on a council estate and integrated with those around them, the kids were just like the rest of us and went through school like we did.

Where I was brought up the were actually brass plates on the pub doors 'No Travellers'. There was a site very close to where I lived but I didn't know that for years, I never had any contact with those that lived there and obviously no trouble, One evening my mate came into the pub and introduced me to his new chum, I shook his hand and he immediately told me that he was from the site and a traveller but he was not like most of them and only wanted to have a drink and a good evening. He turned out to be a really nice guy and I wondered what all the fuss was about.

Years later having moved to a 'decent' place to bring up my family I again became aware that there was a Traveller presence, both settled and those on sites. These people are barred from most of the pubs in the area and most of the 'locals' (many have moved here because they think they are posh!) really wish that they would move on. The problems seems to be with their behaviour in the pubs, the typical scenario goes something like this:

A couple of Travellers go into the pub, when they are served they call up the rest of the 'clan' who turn up en masse. They spend a fortune and become very loud and upset the regulars and one of two things happen:

1/ They start a fight either amongst themselves or with the locals

2/ They drink and spend so much that at closing time they believe that they now 'own' the pub and the standard statement is 'we will tell you when we've had enough' they will then kick off if refused more drink.

We speak about how immigrants don't want to integrate but want to reap the benefits of this country, I don't think that Gypsies and Travellers are quite the same as they are happy to stay outside 'society' but would contend the argument that 'we', 'society', should put ourselves out to accommodate those that just want to take the benefits without contributing.

Just an observation really but hopefully food for thought and discussion.

This is a good post, I will attempt to give it a little more balance, but please don't think I'm trying to make excuses. Gangs of drunken Gypsies are just as bad, if not worse than any other drunken group.

As you point out, Gypsies are barred from a lot of pubs, so when they do find one that will serve them, they ring their mates.

They are loud, and they are prone to fighting, (Especially with each other) but remember, these are not the entire Gypsy race, they are the ones who go out and get drunk.

It's always going to be easy for them to fall out with the locals. The locals resent them, of course they do. it's perfectly understandable, this big gang of loud-talking strangers who have taken over their pub.

You have to admit that with any race or creed, it's the ones among them who go out in a group and get drunk that are most likely to get into trouble.

Lots of Gypsies don't drink at all, but that won't be taken into account by someone who got a fat lip in the pub when he bumps into that teetotal Gypsy at a later date.

The difference is, there are good, well behaved Gypsies, and bad loutish Gypsies, just like anyone else, but where the settled community are concerned, the newspaper will read "Mr Brown and Mr White from Main St committed X crime".

If it's my community on the other hand, the newspaper reads: "The gypsies from the Main Rd site committed X crime"

You said

We speak about how immigrants don't want to integrate but want to reap the benefits of this country, I don't think that Gypsies and Travellers are quite the same as they are happy to stay outside 'society' but would contend the argument that 'we', 'society', should put ourselves out to accommodate those that just want to take the benefits without contributing

I'm not sure about this bit. Who is we? And just because you speak about immigrants that way doesn't mean that it's true. Especially not for ALL immigrants.

You also seem to be putting words into the mouths of the Gypsies.

Please don't think I'm arguing with you, I'm just accepting your invitation to debate.

[highmile]

Yep, rushed the last bit of the post....by 'we' I was trying to say 'the general perception'.

Not sure where I was trying to put words into the mouths of Gypsies, maybe from the pub talk, that is actually 'verbatim'

And it's good to debate, as I said I've never had a problem with Gypsies or Travellers despite the stereotyping of them thaty I was brought up with.

[RED-DOG]

Yep, rushed the last bit of the post....by 'we' I was trying to say 'the general perception'.

Not sure where I was trying to put words into the mouths of Gypsies, maybe from the pub talk, that is actually 'verbatim'

And it's good to debate, as I said I've never had a problem with Gypsies or Travellers despite the stereotyping of them thaty I was brought up with.

I thought that you meant that Gypsies would, "contend the argument that 'we', 'society', should put ourselves out to accommodate those that just want to take the benefits without contributing"

[highmile]

Yep, rushed the last bit of the post....by 'we' I was trying to say 'the general perception'.

Not sure where I was trying to put words into the mouths of Gypsies, maybe from the pub talk, that is actually 'verbatim'

And it's good to debate, as I said I've never had a problem with Gypsies or Travellers despite the stereotyping of them thaty I was brought up with.

I thought that you meant that Gypsies would, "contend the argument that 'we', 'society', should put ourselves out to accommodate those that just want to take the benefits without contributing"

What I meant was that no one, Gypsy/Traveller included, should expect benefits from a society that they do not wish to join in with. And yes, after re-reading I can see the grammatical error of my post...but I think the message was clear

[RED-DOG]

Yep, rushed the last bit of the post....by 'we' I was trying to say 'the general perception'.

Not sure where I was trying to put words into the mouths of Gypsies, maybe from the pub talk, that is actually 'verbatim'

And it's good to debate, as I said I've never had a problem with Gypsies or Travellers despite the stereotyping of them thaty I was brought up with.

I thought that you meant that Gypsies would, "contend the argument that 'we', 'society', should put ourselves out to accommodate those that just want to take the benefits without contributing"

What I meant was that no one, Gypsy/Traveller included, should expect benefits from a society that they do not wish to join in with. And yes, after re-reading I can see the grammatical error of my post...but I think the message was clear

There are of course people from all walks of life who just want to take the benefits and not contribute. I just wondered what particular relevance it has to a discussion about Gypsies.

[MANTIS01]

I know for instance, that if I were filling out a housing form, or registering with the dentist, that I wouldn't tick the box that said "Gypsy".   

The rest of your reply made so much sense that this stood out - why not?

You don't think that some people will treat you with caution or suspicion, even open hostility when they know you're a Gypsy?

On the other hand, do you think that the same people will re-assess their opinions after having dealt with you if you never tell them you are a Gypsy?

Some do, (but it takes quite a while) and some don't.

So with the ones that do, you reap the benefits....   eventually. With the ones who don't, you get the backlash instantly.

In most situations, the risk is too big to take.

A surprising number of those that do re-assess decide that you're OK, but probably not a real Gypsy

Doesn't anticipating hostility from people who deal with Gypsies exhibit the same level of discriminatory mindset as people anticipating trouble when dealing with Gypsies? In both cases you're not allowing individuals to prove themselves independent from the stereotype.

Yes Sir. It undoubtedly does. But when your anticipating a poke in the eye, you blink.

Sigh.

I was going to respond along the lines taken by boldie and mantis, and then you popped up with that poke in the eye line...
Brilliant!

It's the process of anticipation which is at the heart of the problem. You shouldn't anticipate what somebody is going to be like or what their values are if you don't know them. All people should be viewed equally until such a time as their behaviour changes that view. So I understand Red getting frustrated that people anticipate what Gypsies will be like based on the negative stereotype. But people do seem to have this nasty habit of prejudging one another. If we do want to rid the world of that habit and attack the root of the problem I don't think anticipating your dentist will have a negative attitude towards you is the way to go. You're kinda putting out into the world the same negative anticipation you resent in others. The dentist is prob well chilled out about ethnicity issues for all we know.

I understand where you are coming from, but take a look at the comments on any public forum where Gypsies happen to be mentioned, (The ones on the Channel 4 website were appalling) and you will see that the majority of people are prejudiced, and that's a fact.

I would love to be the one who breaks all the barriers down, and I do my best, but sadly, I have my priorities.

You think it's impossible, or even unlikely that an educated man of medicine would treat a Gypsy child differently?

Think again.

Obv it's possible for an educated man of medicine to treat a child differently. But that's actually a pretty tragic stance for the dentist to be taking in his life, pittiful infact. I think if you anticipate that sort of demented outlook from people looking to fix teeth it represents a rather cynical opinion of all dentists and similar figures. Gypsies anticipating problems with dentists is just like the locals anticipating problems with Gypsies because of a few loud drunks in the pub. Both groups opinions are coloured by the minority of bad out there. If you do believe in the innate goodness of people then the dentist deserves to be pre-judged favourably imo.

[RED-DOG]

I know for instance, that if I were filling out a housing form, or registering with the dentist, that I wouldn't tick the box that said "Gypsy".   

The rest of your reply made so much sense that this stood out - why not?

You don't think that some people will treat you with caution or suspicion, even open hostility when they know you're a Gypsy?

On the other hand, do you think that the same people will re-assess their opinions after having dealt with you if you never tell them you are a Gypsy?

Some do, (but it takes quite a while) and some don't.

So with the ones that do, you reap the benefits....   eventually. With the ones who don't, you get the backlash instantly.

In most situations, the risk is too big to take.

A surprising number of those that do re-assess decide that you're OK, but probably not a real Gypsy

Doesn't anticipating hostility from people who deal with Gypsies exhibit the same level of discriminatory mindset as people anticipating trouble when dealing with Gypsies? In both cases you're not allowing individuals to prove themselves independent from the stereotype.

Yes Sir. It undoubtedly does. But when your anticipating a poke in the eye, you blink.

Sigh.

I was going to respond along the lines taken by boldie and mantis, and then you popped up with that poke in the eye line...
Brilliant!

It's the process of anticipation which is at the heart of the problem. You shouldn't anticipate what somebody is going to be like or what their values are if you don't know them. All people should be viewed equally until such a time as their behaviour changes that view. So I understand Red getting frustrated that people anticipate what Gypsies will be like based on the negative stereotype. But people do seem to have this nasty habit of prejudging one another. If we do want to rid the world of that habit and attack the root of the problem I don't think anticipating your dentist will have a negative attitude towards you is the way to go. You're kinda putting out into the world the same negative anticipation you resent in others. The dentist is prob well chilled out about ethnicity issues for all we know.

I understand where you are coming from, but take a look at the comments on any public forum where Gypsies happen to be mentioned, (The ones on the Channel 4 website were appalling) and you will see that the majority of people are prejudiced, and that's a fact.

I would love to be the one who breaks all the barriers down, and I do my best, but sadly, I have my priorities.

You think it's impossible, or even unlikely that an educated man of medicine would treat a Gypsy child differently?

Think again.

Obv it's possible for an educated man of medicine to treat a child differently. But that's actually a pretty tragic stance for the dentist to be taking in his life, pittiful infact. I think if you anticipate that sort of demented outlook from people looking to fix teeth it represents a rather cynical opinion of all dentists and similar figures. Gypsies anticipating problems with dentists is just like the locals anticipating problems with Gypsies because of a few loud drunks in the pub. Both groups opinions are coloured by the minority of bad out there. If you do believe in the innate goodness of people then the dentist deserves to be pre-judged favourably imo.

And I do pre-judge him, and all people favourably. And none of them are the wiser if I take the precaution of waiting until I am proven right.

[RED-DOG]

Reasonably two-sided debate from a police forum.

http://www.ukpoliceonline.co.uk/index.php?/topic/44149-big-fat-gypsy-weddings/


Not quite so two-sided.

http://forums.thedigitalfix.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=604346

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=1213300