Vagueness and the Aftermath - A sporadic diary

[tikay]

I can't really think of the term I'm thinking of, but endangering their child's life? Hindering his treatment? Also, and I'm guessing here, is there an insurance danger here? With regards to travelling to other countries.

Quite possibly, yes, but that does not need to be addressed right now, imo.

[celtic]

I can't really think of the term I'm thinking of, but endangering their child's life? Hindering his treatment? Also, and I'm guessing here, is there an insurance danger here? With regards to travelling to other countries.

Quite possibly, yes, but that does not need to be addressed right now, imo.

It doesn't. But if they have broken some sort of law, you know what jobsworths people can be sometimes. I'm assuming there is more to it all than we are being told at the moment.

[tikay]

I can't really think of the term I'm thinking of, but endangering their child's life? Hindering his treatment? Also, and I'm guessing here, is there an insurance danger here? With regards to travelling to other countries.

Quite possibly, yes, but that does not need to be addressed right now, imo.

It doesn't. But if they have broken some sort of law, you know what jobsworths people can be sometimes. I'm assuming there is more to it all than we are being told at the moment.

Well I'm quite sure the authorities have acted with what they think is "good intent", & they do have a duty to enforce the law as they see it. I just think time & place.

Plenty of time down the line to sort it all out. Arrested, in a cell, handcuffs, it's just surreal, it's all got out of hand.

Anyway, thoughts with the laddo & Mum & Dad right now.

It must all resonate horribly with you & Tom.

[The Wycher]

My thoughts are the parents as well in this, they must be going through hell, I believe the boy's oldest brother is now with him in hospital but the parents should be there. I did also hear that a charity is prepared to pay for the specific treatment if it will help so maybe just maybe something good will come from it.

I am also intrigued how it took the hospital 6 hours to realise that the child was missing!

[RED-DOG]

I can't really think of the term I'm thinking of, but endangering their child's life? Hindering his treatment? Also, and I'm guessing here, is there an insurance danger here? With regards to travelling to other countries.

Quite possibly, yes, but that does not need to be addressed right now, imo.

It doesn't. But if they have broken some sort of law, you know what jobsworths people can be sometimes. I'm assuming there is more to it all than we are being told at the moment.

Well I'm quite sure the authorities have acted with what they think is "good intent", & they do have a duty to enforce the law as they see it. I just think time & place.

Plenty of time down the line to sort it all out. Arrested, in a cell, handcuffs, it's just surreal, it's all got out of hand.

Anyway, thoughts with the laddo & Mum & Dad right now.

It must all resonate horribly with you & Tom.

Your post is very diplomatic, but at some point, an individual must have issued an order to arrest the parents. I think that person needs to justify that decision.

[tikay]

At last, sanity prevails.

The parents were released last night.

"The CPS admitted that it sought the warrant without having enough evidence to charge the parents with child cruelty. It had been expecting more evidence from investigators".

A 100,000 signature petition had earlier been presented at 10 Downing Street, & The Prime Minister, who welcomed the developments, appears to have intervened. The Prime Minister lost his 6 year old son Ivan to illness a few years ago.   

[RED-DOG]

I could write so much here and people would say 'Yes, but that's with the benefit of hindsight'. The truth is, anyone with an ounce of foresight could have written the same thing week ago.

[tikay]

I could write so much here and people would say 'Yes, but that's with the benefit of hindsight'. The truth is, anyone with an ounce of foresight could have written the same thing week ago.

Are you referring to the Ashya King case, Tom?

[RED-DOG]

I could write so much here and people would say 'Yes, but that's with the benefit of hindsight'. The truth is, anyone with an ounce of foresight could have written the same thing week ago.

Are you referring to the Ashya King case, Tom?

Yes Tony. Sorry, I should have quoted your post.

As you said the other day, this case really resonates with me, and I know from personal experience just how unfeeling and vindictive senior medical consultants can be if they feel their wisdom or authority is being challenged.

I had the temerity to ask too many questions about my son's treatment and his consultant, rather than answer and reassure me said "Fine, if you're not happy,  take the him elsewhere".

Imagine how those parents felt when they learned that there was a treatment that had a slim chance of helping their son, but he couldn't have it unless they took him elsewhere. What choice did they have?


I know it's difficult, but in all these cases, someone with a lot of authority is responsible for making an absolutely terrible decision. They should have to justify themselves.

[Doobs]

I could write so much here and people would say 'Yes, but that's with the benefit of hindsight'. The truth is, anyone with an ounce of foresight could have written the same thing week ago.

The parents removed a seriously ill child from hospital and the hospital had no idea where it was.  They have a duty of care for that child, they can't just say it will probably be ok.  We better not do anything because the parents know best.  Some parents make really bad decisions for their child. It seems to me that issuing an arrest warrant was one of very few sensible options at that time.  I could think of several examples where hoping for the best from various parents seems to have resulted in some very bad outcomes.  Maybe the authorities could have found the child just as easily without the warrant, but we can't know that.  And maybe the child would have got to a Spanish hospital without the warrant too?  

As it is even with 100% hindsight, I am uneasy about what has happened.  The child was found in Spain out of hospital, and was only moved to hospital after he was found by the authorities. The father was planning to sell a property in Spain to finance the health care.  Anyone with any knowledge of the Spanish property market would know this wouldn't be likely to be a quick process.  Whilst you can argue that treatment A was better than B, I can't see any argument that removing the child from any hospital and delaying treatment to sell a property would be a better option than just keeping the child in hospital and going with a treatment that may well be as good/nearly as good as the alternative.  

I don't see why the child needed to be taken to Spain to sell the property.  Whilst it is very probably that the father would need to be physically in Spain, there certainly wasn't a reason for the child to be there.  I can see how my children would want me there if they were very sick, but I can't see many circumstances where I would think my presence was more important than that of a doctor.  

So my feeling is that the parents are likely to have meant the best for their child, but they seem to have made some bad decisions on the way.  Even now there is talk of them suing the hospital, when I can't see anything they did that doesn't appear to have been done without putting the interests of the child first.  Without the warrant and the publicity it is tough to see how the child would have reached the position he is in now with options for both the UK and the alternative treatment available in the near future.  

I am glad it seems to have ended well for the child and can't see any need for an arrest warrant now.  I don't think there was much wrong with it in the first place though.  Maybe there could have been something better that the authorities could have done that wasn't so clumsy, but I don't think doing nothing was a better option.  

[Doobs]

I could write so much here and people would say 'Yes, but that's with the benefit of hindsight'. The truth is, anyone with an ounce of foresight could have written the same thing week ago.

Are you referring to the Ashya King case, Tom?

Yes Tony. Sorry, I should have quoted your post.

As you said the other day, this case really resonates with me, and I know from personal experience just how unfeeling and vindictive senior medical consultants can be if they feel their wisdom or authority is being challenged.

I had the temerity to ask too many questions about my son's treatment and his consultant, rather than answer and reassure me said "Fine, if you're not happy,  take the him elsewhere".

Imagine how those parents felt when they learned that there was a treatment that had a slim chance of helping their son, but he couldn't have it unless they took him elsewhere. What choice did they have?


I know it's difficult, but in all these cases, someone with a lot of authority is responsible for making an absolutely terrible decision. They should have to justify themselves.

One of us is misunderstanding the situation.  As I read it there is a UK treatment for the child's disease that has a 80% chance of survival, there is an alternative that may have a better prognosis and may have lower side affects.  That treatment is not available in the UK, but can be financed in some cases.

On the flip side, delaying cancer treatment has a known detrimental effect on survival chances.

Though I haven't lost a child to cancer, I have lost some of those close to me, and am very much aware of the detrimental effects of delayed treatment.

[Rod Paradise]

CBT done  now bike shopping....

[tikay]

I could write so much here and people would say 'Yes, but that's with the benefit of hindsight'. The truth is, anyone with an ounce of foresight could have written the same thing week ago.

Are you referring to the Ashya King case, Tom?

Yes Tony. Sorry, I should have quoted your post.

As you said the other day, this case really resonates with me, and I know from personal experience just how unfeeling and vindictive senior medical consultants can be if they feel their wisdom or authority is being challenged.

I had the temerity to ask too many questions about my son's treatment and his consultant, rather than answer and reassure me said "Fine, if you're not happy,  take the him elsewhere".

Imagine how those parents felt when they learned that there was a treatment that had a slim chance of helping their son, but he couldn't have it unless they took him elsewhere. What choice did they have?


I know it's difficult, but in all these cases, someone with a lot of authority is responsible for making an absolutely terrible decision. They should have to justify themselves.

I thought that was the case Tom, but I'm so easily whooshed these days, & I wanted to check before I waded in.

As I mentioned yesterday, it obviously resonates sharply with you & Vinni, & I'm sure a few others, so your angst is perfectly reasonable. Few of us can begin to imagine.

And yes, they should be required to justify, or attempt to justify, their decisions. It was obvious to most that they had badly bungled this whole thing.    

I can fully understand why you feel so strongly, but there is another side to this.

The chap who messed this up, probably a senior policeman in the Hampshire Constabulary I imagine, is, in all probability, a decent man, trying to do his job to the best of his ability. He made a terrible mistake, yes yes yes, but he did so with genuine, if mistaken, good intent. Effectively, as HE SAW IT, a sick child had almost been kidnapped. At the time, he MAY have suspected they were a bit eccentric, or a member of some weird religious order that forbids medical treratement to children. Such organisations DO exist.  

It's probable, when process has taken place, that he'll lose his job, or be demoted or whatever, & his character forever stained.

He made a mistake, there but for the grace of God & all that.

Under the circumstances, I doubt you'll agree with that, & I understand why. But that's my view.

What started out as good intent was a terrible, terrible, mistake, but I can think of far worse things than a hapless policeman. He's now being villified on social media by people, some of whom have never been responsible for much more than putting their wheely bins out once a week.

The whole thing is just horrible. Punishing the chap responsible won't change any of that. Unless he is plum stupid, which I doubt, he must be paying his bill already.  

We are very precious about our children, & rightly so. Imagine if he had done nothing, & the case had panned out the other way, the parents were nutjobs, who just did not want their child treated due to some religious ideas?

We have seen many cases of social workers being villified, the "Baby P" sort of stories. I doubt it is ever quite as simple as it seems, when we view it from afar, or, as in my case, detached from how it feels to be a parent with a sickly child.

I just don't quite get this eye for an eye thing, it does not solve a damn thing, but I do understand why some people would be greviously hurt by it all. Passion is a stunningly powerful emotion.      

[tikay]

I could write so much here and people would say 'Yes, but that's with the benefit of hindsight'. The truth is, anyone with an ounce of foresight could have written the same thing week ago.

The parents removed a seriously ill child from hospital and the hospital had no idea where it was.  They have a duty of care for that child, they can't just say it will probably be ok.  We better not do anything because the parents know best.  Some parents make really bad decisions for their child. It seems to me that issuing an arrest warrant was one of very few sensible options at that time.  I could think of several examples where hoping for the best from various parents seems to have resulted in some very bad outcomes.  Maybe the authorities could have found the child just as easily without the warrant, but we can't know that.  And maybe the child would have got to a Spanish hospital without the warrant too? 

As it is even with 100% hindsight, I am uneasy about what has happened.  The child was found in Spain out of hospital, and was only moved to hospital after he was found by the authorities. The father was planning to sell a property in Spain to finance the health care.  Anyone with any knowledge of the Spanish property market would know this wouldn't be likely to be a quick process.  Whilst you can argue that treatment A was better than B, I can't see any argument that removing the child from any hospital and delaying treatment to sell a property would be a better option than just keeping the child in hospital and going with a treatment that may well be as good/nearly as good as the alternative.  

I don't see why the child needed to be taken to Spain to sell the property.  Whilst it is very probably that the father would need to be physically in Spain, there certainly wasn't a reason for the child to be there.  I can see how my children would want me there if they were very sick, but I can't see many circumstances where I would think my presence was more important than that of a doctor.  

So my feeling is that the parents are likely to have meant the best for their child, but they seem to have made some bad decisions on the way.  Even now there is talk of them suing the hospital, when I can't see anything they did that doesn't appear to have been done without putting the interests of the child first.  Without the warrant and the publicity it is tough to see how the child would have reached the position he is in now with options for both the UK and the alternative treatment available in the near future.  

I am glad it seems to have ended well for the child and can't see any need for an arrest warrant now.  I don't think there was much wrong with it in the first place though.  Maybe there could have been something better that the authorities could have done that wasn't so clumsy, but I don't think doing nothing was a better option.  

Says it so much better than my ham-fisted attempt, especially Para 1.

It really is NOT as straightforward as it seems at first sight.

IMO, of course.

[tikay]

As a quick PS, let us not forget, when this whole story first broke, the Media were batting for the other side, with all this "police are looking for the parents who removed their dying child from hossie" sorta thing.