Vagueness and the Aftermath - A sporadic diary

[Rod Paradise]

Living in Ireland, I can tell you that they do (rightly or wrongly) differentiate between the two.  It's a bit like 'settled' people having good and bad in their community, but with 'name tags'.   

Aye, that was the impression I got.

My brother lives in Co Clare & his mate bought a farm & is doing it up (with the help of a squad of Brasillians from Gort). Even though money's tight he refused to put a mobile home on the farm while they did the farmhouse up - as he didn't want to look like a knacker.

[RED-DOG]

[Jack Straw called us "The scum of the earth" in open Parliament.

Pot/Kettle moment from Straw.

I seem to notice a lot more anti-traveller sentiment from my Irish friends. I don't know whether this is down to there being more travellers in Ireland or not. Apart from the people in charge of funfairs at the local Gala Days etc don't know that I've met a traveller in Scotland.

BTW I'm using traveller as there seems to be a distinction among my Irish mates between 'knackers' and gypsies, whether this is a genuine distinction or not I don't know.

There are no Irish Gypsies. but genuine traditional Irish travellers are an ethnic minority in their own right and have recently been recognised as such in law.

Knackers are what we would call "New age travellers" and are not part of either culture but have just jumped on the bandwaggon (No pun intended)

[AndrewT]

Jack Straw called us "The scum of the earth" in open Parliament.

A search on Google and in Hansard draws a blank for this.

Unfortunately just searching for 'jack straw scum' on Google gives too many hits to look through...

There are no Irish Gypsies. but genuine traditional Irish travellers are an ethnic minority in their own right and have recently been recognised as such in law.

Knackers are what we would call "New age travellers" and are not part of either culture but have just jumped on the bandwaggon (No pun intended)

Do you think that the distinction between the two is not well-known among the general population and so many anti-Gypsy sentiments are actually anti-traveller?

[Laxie]

Red explained the differences much better.  The problem Rod's brother would have - people assume guilt until proven innocent.  The 'New Age' crew (knackers) cause serious trouble and give the genuine Irish Travellers a bad name.  Afraid of the unknown, people prepare for trouble.  Once they get to know a family, views change...but unfortunately not often enough. 

My husband did work for a Traveller a few years back.  The locals thought he'd lost his mind.  They kept spouting stories of non-payment, threats, theft and all kinds of warnings.  I called to visit one day and the family was lovely.  He took our son with him to work another day and he had a blast playing with their children.  Our son has auburn hair and an bit of a mixed accent (thanks to his mom) and they got a kick out of both.  Timothy did the job and not only was paid in full, but given a bit extra as a tip. 

Less than a year later, they wanted him to do another job.  Again came the warnings.  'They only paid you the first time, so they could get you back in and do you for the larger job the next time.'  Well, there was no fear of Jim.  He and his family were as welcoming as the previous time and Timothy thoroughly enjoyed working for them. 

To be fair, Jim did pull Timothy aside one day and told him tales of others in the area who were 'as described' by the locals.  He said not to ever do a job for a Traveller without ringing him first to make sure they were 'ok'.  4 years later, we still keep in touch.           

[RED-DOG]

After that political interlude, back to my example.....


Most Gypsy men have a fondness for British finches. They are to us what Pokemon cards or Transformers and the like are to schoolboys. We buy them, sell them, swap them, argue about them and show them off. Why? I don’t really know. It’s traditional.

When I was a little boy, my dad was, to coin one of my mother’s favourite phrases, “Bird mad”

Where other men bought and sold birds, my dad bred them. No mean feat with the limited facilities at his disposal. No spacious aviaries to allow these naturally shy creatures quiet and privacy. My dad’s birds had to make do with handmade wooden box cages that sat on a table in front of the caravan and could be easily lifted on to the back of the lorry when we moved. These problems were further complicated by the fact that his breeding stock was caught from the wild and tamed.

Bullfinches, Redpolls, Linnets, Chaffinches, Siskins, Goldfinches, he successfully bred them all while we were travelling. In later years, a Mealy Redpoll that he bred took the rosette for best British finch at the National bird show, and the National is the most prestigious show in the country.

Unlike 99% of other Gypsies at that time, my dad could read and write. This meant that almost every day, someone would turn up at our caravan with a letter in their hand and a worried look on their face “ I just got this from Philip Pool’s”, They would say, (Lots of Gypsies use to use Philip’s address for their correspondence) “Can you read it for me Tom?” My dad would scan the page, “It’s a hospital appointment” or “It’s your hawkers licence” would be met with “Thank God!” “I thought it was a summons”.

To get to the point (I can’t help but waffle) My dad used to have a weekly magazine called “Cage and Aviary Birds” and on a Friday when he came in from work, usually totally exhausted, my mam would fill a bowl with hot water from the kettle and he would wash his hands and face. Then she would put his tea out on a little gate-leg table and he would sit down to eat.

After his meal, he would carefully open his new copy of “Cage and Aviary Birds” and he would read it from cover to cover with a look of utter contentment on his face, totally oblivious to whatever else was going on around him. To my knowledge, it was at that time, his only completely selfish indulgence

The Cage and Aviary Birds Magazine cost 3 d per week. That’s 1.5 new pence. I remember going into the newsagents with him one day when he was presented with a bill for a shilling, (5p) The cost of a month’s worth of issues. He cancelled his subscription there and then. “We can’t afford it,” he said.

Looking back now, I don’t think he cancelled it because we absolutely couldn’t afford it. I think he cancelled it because he felt guilty for spending that money solely on himself.

[kinboshi]

You have told us Tom of how proud you are of were you come from if only that could be past on to others.

Of course he's proud.  He's a Yorkshireman!!

[The_duke]

There are no Irish Gypsies. but genuine traditional Irish travellers are an ethnic minority in their own right and have recently been recognised as such in law.

Are you sure about that Tom I think that Irish Tavellers are recognised in British law as an ethnic group. The Republic of Ireland, however, does not recognise them as an ethnic group; rather, their legal status is that of a "social group" which is a little vague to say the least.

[The_duke]

by the way Tinkers (a derogatory term in my opinon) comes from the Irish tinceiri, or tinceir or "tinsmith." ask Laxies Tim he should know Irish better than me coming from Cork 

[RED-DOG]

OK. This is some stuff I'm not sure about

Jack Straw called us "The scum of the earth" in open Parliament.

A search on Google and in Hansard draws a blank for this.

Jack Straw Did make some very derogatory comments, but it may NOT have been in open parliament, or the comment might not be exactly as I quoted. I will check.

There are no Irish Gypsies. but genuine traditional Irish travellers are an ethnic minority in their own right and have recently been recognised as such in law.

Are you sure about that Tom I think that Irish Tavellers are recognised in British law as an ethnic group. The Republic of Ireland, however, does not recognise them as an ethnic group; rather, their legal status is that of a "social group" which is a little vague to say the least.

No. I'm not sure Duke.I do know that they have been recognised as an ethnic group, but it may only be where British law is concerned.

The Cage and Aviary Birds Magazine cost 3 d per week. That’s 1.5 new pence. I remember going into the newsagents with him one day when he was presented with a bill for a shilling, (5p) The cost of a month’s worth of issues. He cancelled his subscription there and then. “We can’t afford it,” he said.

 

The cost of the magazine.

Thinking about it, the price could have been 2/6 (12.5p) making the monthly subscription 10n shillings (50p). It can't have been as cheap as I said earlier, it wouldn't make sense. I'll ask my dad and get back to you.

[Jon MW]

OK. This is some stuff I'm not sure about

Jack Straw called us "The scum of the earth" in open Parliament.

A search on Google and in Hansard draws a blank for this.

Jack Straw Did make some very derogatory comments, but it may NOT have been in open parliament, or the comment might not be exactly as I quoted. I will check.
...

Something to do with this? - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/427693.stm

[boldie]

"Many of these so-called travellers seem to think that it is perfectly OK for them to cause mayhem in an area, to go burgling, thieving, breaking into vehicles, causing all kinds of trouble, including defecating in the doorways of firms and so on, and getting away with it.

"Travellers have traded on the sentiment, they've masqueraded as law-abiding gypsies, when many of them are not."

hmmm I can see how that would cause offense coming from the weasly mouth of one of the nastier people in Govt.

[Eck]

OK. This is some stuff I'm not sure about

Jack Straw called us "The scum of the earth" in open Parliament.

A search on Google and in Hansard draws a blank for this.

Jack Straw Did make some very derogatory comments, but it may NOT have been in open parliament, or the comment might not be exactly as I quoted. I will check.
...

Something to do with this? - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/427693.stm

from the above link:

In the original interview which sparked the controversy, Mr Straw told BBC Radio West Midlands: "Many of these so-called travellers seem to think that it is perfectly OK for them to cause mayhem in an area, to go burgling, thieving, breaking into vehicles, causing all kinds of trouble, including defecating in the doorways of firms and so on, and getting away with it.


but leaving out the previous paragraph which may have framed his comments a bit more: (from the Guardian)

In the interview with BBC Radio West Midland on July 22, Mr Straw said: "There are relatively few real Romany gypsies left, who seem to mind their own business and don't cause trouble to other people, and then there are a lot more people who masquerade as travellers or gypsies, who trade on the sentiment of people, but who seem to think because they label themselves as travellers that therefore they've got a licence to commit crimes and act in an unlawful way that other people don't have."

Don't have any personal take on the situation just too tired to do some real work this morning..

[RED-DOG]

OK. This is some stuff I'm not sure about

Jack Straw called us "The scum of the earth" in open Parliament.

A search on Google and in Hansard draws a blank for this.

Jack Straw Did make some very derogatory comments, but it may NOT have been in open parliament, or the comment might not be exactly as I quoted. I will check.
...

Something to do with this? - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/427693.stm

Lol, no, that's not it. but it is interesting.


PS- I hope this doesn't turn into a political thread. I won't mention it again if you dont.

[hans47]

Red I was once told that you could not hand feed a finch but I eventually got my finch to eat off my hand is it rare for them to do that or was someone telling me porkies and I love to have birds think it is a man thing would love to fly!

[RED-DOG]

Red I was once told that you could not hand feed a finch but I eventually got my finch to eat off my hand is it rare for them to do that or was someone telling me porkies and I love to have birds think it is a man thing would love to fly!

It's not uncommon. I used to put goldfinch eggs under canaries and when they fledged they would feed from your hand.

Cock bullfinches, even those caught from the wild become so tame that if you can't get rid of them.

I have caught a selection during the winter (it's easier then) then when I've decided which ones to keep, the ones I released kept flying back into the aviary every time I opened the door.