Vagueness and the Aftermath - A sporadic diary

[Karabiner]

Tom that's really interesting stuff regarding mokadi, it seems as though it works almost in exactly the same way as kosher, or kashrut does for the Jews who I would imagine were probably nomadic at the time these rules were made.

Kashrut is actually a "rule-book" of what is and is not allowed and can be to do with anything from food to love-making.

Yes Ralph. I was so tempted to refer to kosher when trying to explain mokadi. I decided not to because don't understand kosher properly and I didn't want to cause offence.


I'm convinced that these rules are originate because of the way nomads live. Think about it, lots of people all eating and sleeping in the same very small space. Ideal conditions for disease to flourish unless particular care is paid to hygiene.

If there's no malice behind a statement then I don't see why causing offence should be a concern. If everyone thought others could take offence at something they said, no one would ever say anything.

When I read about mokadi, kosher was the first thing I thought of as well, and an awful lot of that is simply good hygiene rules - I'd imagine the same thing applies to mokadi. Given the outdoors life of a Gypsy, particularly if it means a lot of close proximity to animals, then keeping the kitchen sink area clean for food preparation is only sensible.

Perhaps "Cause offence" was the wrong choice of words Andrew. I suppose what I meant was that I didn't want to compare mokadi to kosher because it assumes a knowledge of kosher that I don't possess.

Mind you, thinking about it, I could have said "I would imagine that mokadi is something similar to kosher"

Well tbh I actually had to think twice before posting on the subject of kashrut because my knowledge on the subject is very limited and I was a little concerned that i might make an unintentional faux-pas, but the similarities seemed so clear that I ploughed on regardless.

[RED-DOG]

Tom that's really interesting stuff regarding mokadi, it seems as though it works almost in exactly the same way as kosher, or kashrut does for the Jews who I would imagine were probably nomadic at the time these rules were made.

Kashrut is actually a "rule-book" of what is and is not allowed and can be to do with anything from food to love-making.

Yes Ralph. I was so tempted to refer to kosher when trying to explain mokadi. I decided not to because don't understand kosher properly and I didn't want to cause offence.


I'm convinced that these rules are originate because of the way nomads live. Think about it, lots of people all eating and sleeping in the same very small space. Ideal conditions for disease to flourish unless particular care is paid to hygiene.

If there's no malice behind a statement then I don't see why causing offence should be a concern. If everyone thought others could take offence at something they said, no one would ever say anything.

When I read about mokadi, kosher was the first thing I thought of as well, and an awful lot of that is simply good hygiene rules - I'd imagine the same thing applies to mokadi. Given the outdoors life of a Gypsy, particularly if it means a lot of close proximity to animals, then keeping the kitchen sink area clean for food preparation is only sensible.

Perhaps "Cause offence" was the wrong choice of words Andrew. I suppose what I meant was that I didn't want to compare mokadi to kosher because it assumes a knowledge of kosher that I don't possess.

Mind you, thinking about it, I could have said "I would imagine that mokadi is something similar to kosher"

It's no big thing - I just have a bee in my bonnet about 'causing offence' at the moment. It seems to be too often used by people who have no actual counter-argument to something so just use it to shut down debate about something. But that doesn't apply here and isn't for this thread.

Given what I know of Gypsy tradition (which is all from this thread) I probably already know the answer to this, but I assume all knowledge of mokadi is passed on through the oral tradition - there's no 'Big Book of Gypsy Mokadi' to consult?

You're absolutely right Andrew. We learn it by example, by having it constantly drummed in to us, and by the giving and receiving of the occasional thick ear.

There is no Big Book of Gypsy Mokadi, but if I were ever to write one, I would definitely steal your title.

[AndrewT]

There is no Big Book of Gypsy Mokadi, but if I were ever to write one, I would definitely steal your title.

Please feel free to steal this as the front cover image.

[RED-DOG]

Thank you. And may I just take this opportunity to remind all reporters and updaters that the photographing of a Gypsy eating a large fried breakfast is mokadi in the extreme.

[RED-DOG]

Continued from

http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=30601.msg938163#msg938163


Right. I suppose it's time to tackle "Leave rubbish behind"


As I said earlier, we are guilty as charged. Gypsies do leave rubbish behind, but it is a relatively recent phenomenon, and there is much to be said in mitigation.

When I was a boy, we used to travel in small family groups consisting of of perhaps 3 or 4 caravans. We stayed on traditional camp sites, used by Gypsies for generations. We stayed for a week or two, and then we moved on. Before we left, we would make sure that the camp was left spotless, so that when we had gone, all that was left behind were circles in the grass. Big ones where the tethered horses had cropped it, and small ones where the camp fires had been.

Because the local people knew that we would be gone soon, and that the camp would be left tidy, they were more inclined to be, if not exactly welcoming, at least tolerant of us.

The job of cleaning up usually fell to my brother Tracy and I, but to be honest, it wasn't too much of a job. Back then you see, we just didn't produce much rubbish. There was very little prepacked food, and most of what we bought came in a brown paper bag, wrapped in a newspaper, or sometimes (not often) in a tin. There was virtually no plastic, cellophane or polystyrene, so the rubbish virtually took care of it's self.

See, the brown paper bags and newspapers would be used to light both the fire outside and the stove inside. Any surplus was easy burned as well, but that wasn't often the case, more often than not there was a shortage of paper. Organic stuff like the peels cores and husks from the fruit and veg was fed to the horses, and anything meat based like bones, offal, the odd chicken carcass etc would be boiled up, mixed with a little bran or some such, and fed to the dogs. Tins went into the scrap, and bottles, with a penny bounty on their heads, were rounded up and taken back to the corner shop. 

But times change, and like everyone else, we stated to produce more and more rubbish, but unlike everyone else, we had no dustbin man rolling up once a week to take it away for us.

So with no one to take the rubbish away for us, you might think that the obvious solution would be for us to take it away ourselves, but where could we take it? It is the hardest job in the word to dump your rubbish at a waste disposal yard or council tip on a regular basis unless you have a permit, and you can't get a permit unless you are a resident in that area and have a postal address.

We've tried asking local authorities to provide us with a skip, but they fear that the residents would see this as encouraging or condoning our presence. So we have to let our rubbish pile up, and then when we leave, those same local authorities moan like mad and send pictures of the filth that they have to deal with to the local papers.

To make matters worse, other travelling groups lumped together with us under the heading of Gypsy dump trade waste, and people from the local houses dump rubbish near Gypsy encampments. Want proof? Next time you pass an encampment with lots of rubbish in evidence, take note of how many settees, old fridges, mattresses etc there are, Gypsies don't produce rubbish like that.

I'm not saying that we are totally blameless here, but Gypsies have little opportunity or incentive to keep camps clean anymore. We are producing more and more rubbish every year, and every year it is becoming increasingly difficult to get rid of.

One thing I do know is that if the powers that be would provide skips, or relax the law and allow us to use waste disposal yards and refuse tips without a permit, the problem of Gypsies leaving rubbish behind would virtually dissapear overnight.

 

[Dingdell]

Tom - as Gypsies that travel (unlike yourself) don't pay council tax I wonder why they would think they would be entitled to skips provided by the council? If the rubbish problem is really an issue and of concern to Gypsies and they can't dump in the local dumps why not hire a skip themselves?

It's not something they are likely to disappear easily with so any hire company with that mis conception about Gypsies might be happy to hire skips (I had to pay for mine on delivery)

[RED-DOG]

Tom - as Gypsies that travel (unlike yourself) don't pay council tax I wonder why they would think they would be entitled to skips provided by the council? If the rubbish problem is really an issue and of concern to Gypsies and they can't dump in the local dumps why not hire a skip themselves?

It's not something they are likely to disappear easily with so any hire company with that mis conception about Gypsies might be happy to hire skips (I had to pay for mine on delivery)

I didn't actually say that they thought they would be entitled to free skips, (I'm sure most would be willing to pay a reasonable fee). I just said it would be easier and cheaper for the council to provide skips in the first place, rather that turn up with those very same skips to "clean up the filth" after the fact.

Local hire firms would be very reluctant to hire a skip out to illegally camped Gypsies.

BTW- You had to pay for the cost of the hire of your skip on delivery, not the cost of the skip itself.

[RED-DOG]

I'm not trying to excuse leaving rubbish behind Trace, I'm just I'm just pointing out some of the reasons for this recent phenomenon.

The loss of traditional camp sites, the influx of other travelling groups who make trade waste, the difficulty of legal disposal, householders who cynically use the presence of Gypsies to dispose of their own rubbish etc are all contributing factors.

When I started to write this piece, I was tempted to say that real Gypsies would never leave rubbish behind, but that wouldn't quite be true. It would just make it seem like I automatically deny every and any accusation leveled against us, and I want to retain some credability.

In truth, if a group consists of real Gypsies, they will still usually do everything they can to leave a camp site clean. If they can't dispose of the rubbish, they will at least put it into black bags so that it is easy to collect and the place still looks respectable.

It's traditional for us to leave camp sites tidy. and you know what we're like with tradition.

[RED-DOG]

This is going to be controversial.

http://www.gm.tv/index.cfm?articleid=34100

I've always liked parky, but I'm not sure about this article. Having said that, I've only seen a paraphrased version.

Does anyone have a link to the article in it's entirety?

[AndrewT]

This is going to be controversial.

http://www.gm.tv/index.cfm?articleid=34100

I've always liked parky, but I'm not sure about this article. Having said that, I've only seen a paraphrased version.

Does anyone have a link to the article in it's entirety?

It was in the Radio Times, which I don't think has ithe articles on its website - just the TV listings.

Giving Parky the benefit of the doubt, I think he's having a go at the media coverage of Jade, but could have chosen his words better as it comes across as blaming Jade for the fact she was from a council estate.

On last week's Newswipe, Charlie Brooker did a piece about the media coverage of Jade which you might want to see on iPlayer (only there till this evening as it'll be replaced by tonight's programme. It's near the end if you don't want to watch the whole half-hour.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00jks6r/Newswipe_Episode_2/

[RED-DOG]

This is going to be controversial.

http://www.gm.tv/index.cfm?articleid=34100

I've always liked parky, but I'm not sure about this article. Having said that, I've only seen a paraphrased version.

Does anyone have a link to the article in it's entirety?

It was in the Radio Times, which I don't think has ithe articles on its website - just the TV listings.

Giving Parky the benefit of the doubt, I think he's having a go at the media coverage of Jade, but could have chosen his words better as it comes across as blaming Jade for the fact she was from a council estate.

On last week's Newswipe, Charlie Brooker did a piece about the media coverage of Jade which you might want to see on iPlayer (only there till this evening as it'll be replaced by tonight's programme. It's near the end if you don't want to watch the whole half-hour.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00jks6r/Newswipe_Episode_2/

I thought that was a great piece Andrew. I haven't seen this show before though, and I have to confess that I found the presenters style somewhat uncomfortable and disturbing (I don't know if that's a good or a bad thing).

It did occur to me that Mr Brooker himself is now guilty of the same thing that he is accusing the others of.

Perhaps you and I are too.   

[AndrewT]

This is going to be controversial.

http://www.gm.tv/index.cfm?articleid=34100

I've always liked parky, but I'm not sure about this article. Having said that, I've only seen a paraphrased version.

Does anyone have a link to the article in it's entirety?

It was in the Radio Times, which I don't think has ithe articles on its website - just the TV listings.

Giving Parky the benefit of the doubt, I think he's having a go at the media coverage of Jade, but could have chosen his words better as it comes across as blaming Jade for the fact she was from a council estate.

On last week's Newswipe, Charlie Brooker did a piece about the media coverage of Jade which you might want to see on iPlayer (only there till this evening as it'll be replaced by tonight's programme. It's near the end if you don't want to watch the whole half-hour.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00jks6r/Newswipe_Episode_2/

I thought that was a great piece Andrew. I haven't seen this show before though, and I have to confess that I found the presenters style somewhat uncomfortable and disturbing (I don't know if that's a good or a bad thing).

It did occur to me that Mr Brooker himself is now guilty of the same thing that he is accusing the others of.

Perhaps you and I are too.   

He's always like that - it's generally just faux-outrage.

[sovietsong]

Another great piece about preconceptions. I was wondering now that you stay in the same place do you miss travelling around and staying in different places? If so do you ever think about returning to the road?

[EvilPie]

Tom - as Gypsies that travel (unlike yourself) don't pay council tax I wonder why they would think they would be entitled to skips provided by the council? If the rubbish problem is really an issue and of concern to Gypsies and they can't dump in the local dumps why not hire a skip themselves?

It's not something they are likely to disappear easily with so any hire company with that mis conception about Gypsies might be happy to hire skips (I had to pay for mine on delivery)

I didn't actually say that they thought they would be entitled to free skips, (I'm sure most would be willing to pay a reasonable fee). I just said it would be easier and cheaper for the council to provide skips in the first place, rather that turn up with those very same skips to "clean up the filth" after the fact.

Local hire firms would be very reluctant to hire a skip out to illegally camped Gypsies.

BTW- You had to pay for the cost of the hire of your skip on delivery, not the cost of the skip itself.

Another problem Tracey is that skip hire firms will not leave a skip on land without the land owner's permission.

If anyone's ever tried getting a skip dropped on a road for example they'll know what I mean.

Also skip hire firms like to leave a skip for a maximum of 1 week. Any longer and it's uneconomical for them. I know the Gypsies (like the rest of us) create a lot of household waste but it'd still take a while to fill a skip.

There is very little incentive for the skip hire company to leave a skip on a Gypsy camp site unless the Gypsies are paying over the odds for it and why would they?

I, like many others have seen the pictures of the mess left behind by various travelling groups and been disgusted. However, when you think about it it's a difficult problem for travellers to deal with so becomes understandable. If they aren't being helped in any way then what can they do?

Tom; How do you deal your waste from your own home? Have you been graced with a wheelie bin you big snob you?

[tikay]

This is going to be controversial.

http://www.gm.tv/index.cfm?articleid=34100

I've always liked parky, but I'm not sure about this article. Having said that, I've only seen a paraphrased version.

Does anyone have a link to the article in it's entirety?

I will C & P it on here later today Tom, when I find it  - it was in "Yahoo Entertainment News" yesterday. It caught my eye as a particularly thought provoking piece. And Parky used a word I so like, & has gone out of fashion - "puerile". Gotta love that word.

And in today's The Independent, the odious Janet Street Porter comes out in favour of the article very convincingly, including reference to the equally "odious Max Clifford" at some length.

In essence, both articles are really attacking the quite dreadful way the Red-Tops trumpeted the whole story.

All parties agree that it's terribly sad that a young woman, whether we like her or not, died so young.