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Author Topic: Keep The Meta Running  (Read 10585 times)
AlexMartin
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« Reply #30 on: August 16, 2008, 05:21:30 PM »

Ignore meta-game unless you play HU tbh. More important things to focus on @ the table.

u mean you dont get into ridic levelling 4b matches with some regs coz they have seen you jam 34 sooooooted pre?
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AndrewT
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« Reply #31 on: August 16, 2008, 05:52:44 PM »

An explanation of Meta-Game:

Simply put the Meta-Game is the game within the game, or more clearly the way the game is played within a certain environment. Examples of environments could include different countries, internet sites or individual poker clubs. The way the game is played in each of these environments may be subtly different, the rules are the same but the styles are not. In one club the game might be very aggressive and full of bluffers, another could be very tight with everyone trying to out slowplay each other. These two clubs could be described as having different Meta-Games.

A poker club populated with a large number of regular locals who do not play on-line will tend to have a very specific Meta, whilst a bigger club with a constant influx of new experienced players might have a much less defined Meta. The evolution of the internet has meant that the sharing of new ideas and styles of play is disseminated amongst a large number of people very quickly. This might mean that a particular move might be very effective initially, such as floating, but once the word gets out everyone starts to include that move as part of their game and others begin to defend against it. This then results in a shift in the Meta-Game.

One clear example of a shift in the Meta-Game is tournament poker prior to everyone reading Harrington and post everyone reading Harrington.

[  ] Person who wrote this knows what meta-game is
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Grier78
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« Reply #32 on: August 16, 2008, 06:02:26 PM »

An explanation of Meta-Game:

Simply put the Meta-Game is the game within the game, or more clearly the way the game is played within a certain environment. Examples of environments could include different countries, internet sites or individual poker clubs. The way the game is played in each of these environments may be subtly different, the rules are the same but the styles are not. In one club the game might be very aggressive and full of bluffers, another could be very tight with everyone trying to out slowplay each other. These two clubs could be described as having different Meta-Games.

A poker club populated with a large number of regular locals who do not play on-line will tend to have a very specific Meta, whilst a bigger club with a constant influx of new experienced players might have a much less defined Meta. The evolution of the internet has meant that the sharing of new ideas and styles of play is disseminated amongst a large number of people very quickly. This might mean that a particular move might be very effective initially, such as floating, but once the word gets out everyone starts to include that move as part of their game and others begin to defend against it. This then results in a shift in the Meta-Game.

One clear example of a shift in the Meta-Game is tournament poker prior to everyone reading Harrington and post everyone reading Harrington.

[  ] Person who wrote this knows what meta-game is

[ x ] Above person chooses to insult the poster by saying they do not know what a meta-game is when they do indeed know what a meta-game is.

From Wikipedia:

Adaptation to a specific gaming environment
Another game-related use of Metagaming refers to operating on knowledge of the way a game is played within a particular geographic region or tournament circuit. This local or circuit-specific context is often referred to as the metagame. A player who is aware of the metagame for their particular gaming environment may make play choices that are objectively inferior for the game in general, but are optimized against the play styles of the majority of players they are likely to face in that specific competitive arena. This usage is common in games that have large, organized play systems or tournament circuits and which feature customized decks of cards, sets of miniatures or other playing pieces for each player. The premier example[citation needed] of this kind of environment is the tournament scene for the card game Magic: The Gathering. But this is probably better called a meta-related game not a metagame since this is a game related to a meta (a local environment).
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thetank
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« Reply #33 on: August 16, 2008, 06:04:48 PM »

[  ] Wikipedia is always correct.
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Grier78
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« Reply #34 on: August 16, 2008, 06:29:37 PM »

[  ] Wikipedia is always correct.

Although it is coincidental that it agrees with me, seeing as I did not read it until after I posted. Having played CCG's for the last 13 years or so I am well used to using the term Meta with relation to cardgames.
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Wardonkey
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« Reply #35 on: August 16, 2008, 06:35:11 PM »

[  ] Wikipedia is always correct.

Although it is coincidental that it agrees with me, seeing as I did not read it until after I posted. Having played CCG's for the last 13 years or so I am well used to using the term Meta with relation to cardgames.

But seemingly not in relation to poker....
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AndrewT
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« Reply #36 on: August 16, 2008, 06:38:18 PM »

An explanation of Meta-Game:

Simply put the Meta-Game is the game within the game, or more clearly the way the game is played within a certain environment. Examples of environments could include different countries, internet sites or individual poker clubs. The way the game is played in each of these environments may be subtly different, the rules are the same but the styles are not. In one club the game might be very aggressive and full of bluffers, another could be very tight with everyone trying to out slowplay each other. These two clubs could be described as having different Meta-Games.

A poker club populated with a large number of regular locals who do not play on-line will tend to have a very specific Meta, whilst a bigger club with a constant influx of new experienced players might have a much less defined Meta. The evolution of the internet has meant that the sharing of new ideas and styles of play is disseminated amongst a large number of people very quickly. This might mean that a particular move might be very effective initially, such as floating, but once the word gets out everyone starts to include that move as part of their game and others begin to defend against it. This then results in a shift in the Meta-Game.

One clear example of a shift in the Meta-Game is tournament poker prior to everyone reading Harrington and post everyone reading Harrington.

[  ] Person who wrote this knows what meta-game is

[ x ] Above person chooses to insult the poster by saying they do not know what a meta-game is when they do indeed know what a meta-game is.

Er, no. The reason I said 'person who wrote this' instead of 'Grier78' was because it was clear you didn't write it, you'd copied and pasted it from somewhere.

What you have done is you've put 'meta game' into Wikipedia or whereever and copied what it said. What it says is not correct - that's not what meta game means within the context of poker.

If you want to know what meta game is, read Longy's post and his blind on blind example.
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Grier78
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« Reply #37 on: August 16, 2008, 06:44:00 PM »

[  ] Wikipedia is always correct.

Although it is coincidental that it agrees with me, seeing as I did not read it until after I posted. Having played CCG's for the last 13 years or so I am well used to using the term Meta with relation to cardgames.

But seemingly not in relation to poker....

To the best of my knowledge the usage of the term Meta-Game has transferred to Poker over the last 5 or 6 years as large numbers of Magic the Gathering players have moved across to Poker, the most famous of which is David Williams. If anyone can point out the term being used with relation to Poker previous to this then please let me know as I was not playing Poker at that time.
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Grier78
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« Reply #38 on: August 16, 2008, 06:49:50 PM »

An explanation of Meta-Game:

Simply put the Meta-Game is the game within the game, or more clearly the way the game is played within a certain environment. Examples of environments could include different countries, internet sites or individual poker clubs. The way the game is played in each of these environments may be subtly different, the rules are the same but the styles are not. In one club the game might be very aggressive and full of bluffers, another could be very tight with everyone trying to out slowplay each other. These two clubs could be described as having different Meta-Games.

A poker club populated with a large number of regular locals who do not play on-line will tend to have a very specific Meta, whilst a bigger club with a constant influx of new experienced players might have a much less defined Meta. The evolution of the internet has meant that the sharing of new ideas and styles of play is disseminated amongst a large number of people very quickly. This might mean that a particular move might be very effective initially, such as floating, but once the word gets out everyone starts to include that move as part of their game and others begin to defend against it. This then results in a shift in the Meta-Game.

One clear example of a shift in the Meta-Game is tournament poker prior to everyone reading Harrington and post everyone reading Harrington.

[  ] Person who wrote this knows what meta-game is

[ x ] Above person chooses to insult the poster by saying they do not know what a meta-game is when they do indeed know what a meta-game is.

Er, no. The reason I said 'person who wrote this' instead of 'Grier78' was because it was clear you didn't write it, you'd copied and pasted it from somewhere.

What you have done is you've put 'meta game' into Wikipedia or whereever and copied what it said. What it says is not correct - that's not what meta game means within the context of poker.

If you want to know what meta game is, read Longy's post and his blind on blind example.

Well you are incorrect on your first point as I did indeed write all of it.

Secondly Longy has posted an example of Meta-Game within Poker not a wider definition of it. I don't see how what Longy posted is contrary to what I posted, as he is stating that in a particular environment (Sit and Go's) that people tend to employ a specific strategy. By identifying the Meta-Game he has been able to take advantage of that strategy. If lots of people started playing like Longy then people would apply that strategy less and this would result in a change in the Meta-Game.
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AndrewT
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« Reply #39 on: August 16, 2008, 07:01:31 PM »

Well you are incorrect on your first point as I did indeed write all of it.

Secondly Longy has posted an example of Meta-Game within Poker not a wider definition of it. I don't see how what Longy posted is contrary to what I posted, as he is stating that in a particular environment (Sit and Go's) that people tend to employ a specific strategy. By identifying the Meta-Game he has been able to take advantage of that strategy. If lots of people started playing like Longy then people would apply that strategy less and this would result in a change in the Meta-Game.

In every example of meta game I have seen (when talking about poker) the person using it has been using it in the context of a play, the ramifications of which are not just to be felt in that hand. This whole 'the meta game of that poker club is quite aggressive' stuff you gave is just not something I've ever seen.
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Grier78
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« Reply #40 on: August 16, 2008, 07:10:31 PM »

Well you are incorrect on your first point as I did indeed write all of it.

Secondly Longy has posted an example of Meta-Game within Poker not a wider definition of it. I don't see how what Longy posted is contrary to what I posted, as he is stating that in a particular environment (Sit and Go's) that people tend to employ a specific strategy. By identifying the Meta-Game he has been able to take advantage of that strategy. If lots of people started playing like Longy then people would apply that strategy less and this would result in a change in the Meta-Game.

In every example of meta game I have seen (when talking about poker) the person using it has been using it in the context of a play, the ramifications of which are not just to be felt in that hand. This whole 'the meta game of that poker club is quite aggressive' stuff you gave is just not something I've ever seen.

Yes, if you are Meta-Gamming then you are using the information you have gleaned from identifying the Meta-Game and using that to your advantage, this can be either with a narrow focus such as a particular table in a particular game right up to a wide focus such as Internet vs Live Play.

the ramifications of which are not just to be felt in that hand

I think what you are thinking of here is taking actions to change the Meta of that game in order to give yourself an advantage. The obvious example of this the "standard bet", on some tables players seem to settle on a set amount to bet on a particular blind level and other players at the table tend to also bet that amount. If you start making bigger opening bets than the "standard bet" then you can try to make the table come with you and also make bigger opening bets. Creating a shift in the "Local Meta".
« Last Edit: August 16, 2008, 07:29:20 PM by Grier78 » Logged

thetank
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« Reply #41 on: August 16, 2008, 07:15:54 PM »

Google book search ftw

Just searched for metagame in volumes published between 1900 & 1950

168 Results

So it's not a new word.
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Grier78
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« Reply #42 on: August 16, 2008, 07:28:00 PM »

Google book search ftw

Just searched for metagame in volumes published between 1900 & 1950

168 Results

So it's not a new word.

I meant with relation to card games, I think it has been used as a military term for a long time and within Mathematics for even longer.
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thetank
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« Reply #43 on: August 16, 2008, 11:58:39 PM »

I think it is interesting.Three schools of thought, each with their own thoughts on what the word metagame should mean to a poker player.

I’ve been a little busy, and as far as I can tell, we’re all absolutely correct!

The word metagame seems pretty simple to look at first glance. ‘Game’ comes after the prefix ‘meta’.

We all know what a game is, but what about a meta?

The dictionary lists three definitions for meta. The first one I’ll mention quickly just to get it out of the way... “denoting position behind, after or beyond” (ie, your metatarsals and  metacarpals)

That doesn't have much to do with anything else, so we'll ignore it, but come back to the other two definitons later on.



Game theorists have studied poker as a model for quite some time. Metagame theory is a branch of game theory, and it seems clear to me that the first use of the word metagame in a poker context was more than probably by way of game theory.
 
The game theorist’s metagame seems to be all about choosing the best option based upon what you think your opponent might do. It is a little more complicated than that, and I’ll confess that I do not fully grasp all the specifics, but that is the general jist.
 
By this token, would you believe that the use of metagame in the article Carl wrote is not actually wrong! What he describes is a genuine example of what Doyle Brunson meant by the metagame when he wrote Super System.



This is where I should probably put the second dictionary definition of the prefix meta... “to denote something of a higher or second order.” - ie, metalanguage or metaprogramming

Metalanguage is language used to describe other language, and metaprogramming is a program that programs other programs. It’s easy enough from this to see metagame as “the game within the game.”

So another definition has evolved, and seems to be predominantly the one favoured by the majority of players on here, including myself.
“The game within the game” is all about making decisions and taking action that helps in the future, such as the metagame 'spite call' that Longy described for us earlier in the thread.

It's quite a natural progression. Carl's metagame meant considering other options based upon knowledge of what your opponents might do. The contradiction stems from the the fact that this is pretty much what poker is all about anyway! The word didn’t really fill much of a lexical gap.
The new metagame doesn't have this problem. It fits nicely into everyday poker conversation, and the critical thing is that people actually understand what you're talking about.



Found a metagame you liked? Unfortunately we're not quite done yet?

Into the mix comes Grier78 with his definition of metagame. To describe a location’s differing conditions, such as a poker club, and the successful poker player's need to adjust to them.
 
Game is sometimes omitted, and meta used on its own as a plural noun (The metas are totally different at the weekend. What’s the meta like up where you are?)
 
He reports that the word used in this manner stems from a card game called Magic : The Gathering, that started in 1993.

We can see the game theory roots in there, (adjusting to what you think they’re going to do) but there may be another influence in it coming to be used so...

The last dictionary definition of the prefix meta is to “indicate a change of position or condition” - ie. Metamorphosis.

So it seems that the Magic players have a dual claim to using meta in such a manner.

I couldn’t find too many examples of poker players using metagame in this context if they were not also fans of the Magic card game. That being said Grier78’s metagame is being  used a fair bit while talking about the 52-card game, and so perfectly legitimate.




Anyway, I’ve found this journey into pokolinguistics fun, (because I’m odd like that.)
Possibly bollox, but I'm happy now that I understand meta enough to waffle about it.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2008, 12:12:05 AM by thetank » Logged

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mike saban
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« Reply #44 on: August 17, 2008, 01:20:25 AM »

 
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