analyse this!

[AlexMartin]

I disagree that the K on the turn is a good card to barrel. Primary draw got there and its adding BAD texture to the board. Obv barreling scare cards is good, but not here i dont think, even with your monster.

[Simon Galloway]

Simon Galloway is his name on here

 Not spewy in the least, but a thinking player.

to be fair, Qx is probably not what Simon has in this spot!

Finish him off for me Tighty.  If you need any ammo, even this spew-tard doesn't like it

I disagree that the K on the turn is a good card to barrel. Primary draw got there and its adding BAD texture to the board. Obv barreling scare cards is good, but not here i dont think, even with your monster.

[Royal Flush]

to be fair, Qx is probably not what Simon has in this spot!

So Simon defends JT but not QJ/QT?

So if the board was J83 he check calls turn is Q same suits and claws hand is AK instead of AJ.

I would be saying Jx which would be correct....

I am confused, i must learn which hands to make spewy calls with pre!

[Simon Galloway]

I am confused, i must learn which hands to make spewy calls with pre!

Oh they are all pretty much spewy.  The secret is to get the action right thereafter.  I believe I have displayed the ability to crai with JT and fold JT on the same board in different circumstances, enough to show a profit and enough for other players like Tighty to notice it as well.

[Royal Flush]

I am confused, i must learn which hands to make spewy calls with pre!

Oh they are all pretty much spewy.  The secret is to get the action right thereafter.  I believe I have displayed the ability to crai with JT and fold JT on the same board in different circumstances, enough to show a profit and enough for other players like Tighty to notice it as well.

You make profit from defending JT for 4BB OOP 40BB deep?

Suppose you are good at playing the streets in 13BB pots with 36BB back.....

God i love live poker!

[MANTIS01]

You've got a very thick recipe book there if under the JT section there is enough material to include all the macro influences that went into making up the call.

The call is ok Simon. But what happened was you looked down and saw a playable hand you wanted to defend with and called.

[Graham C]

This has turned into an interesting thread with some good comments from different sides of the fence.

[Gamblor21]

Simon[/url] Galloway link=topic=36807.msg806270#msg806270 date=1221244224]
to be fair, Qx is probably not what Simon has in this spot!

So Simon defends JT but not QJ/QT?

So if the board was J83 he check calls turn is Q same suits and claws hand is AK instead of AJ.

I would be saying Jx which would be correct....

I am confused, i must learn which hands to make spewy calls with pre!

What do you make the calls with? If he thinks he can outplay Claire if they both miss is it still a bad call?

I make the call, but as you know i rely on variance being in my favour.

Also get yourself to the blondebash, i must owe you a drink somehow and i fancy teahing you a mixed game lesson (10p/20p max stakes, min 6 cards... We should both be in for a fortune)

[Simon Galloway]

Simon[/url] Galloway link=topic=36807.msg806281#msg806281 date=1221244910]

I am confused, i must learn which hands to make spewy calls with pre!

Oh they are all pretty much spewy.  The secret is to get the action right thereafter.  I believe I have displayed the ability to crai with JT and fold JT on the same board in different circumstances, enough to show a profit and enough for other players like Tighty to notice it as well.

You make profit from defending JT for 4BB OOP 40BB deep?

Suppose you are good at playing the streets in 13BB pots with 36BB back.....

God i love live poker!

You should reserve judgement until you have played a couple of 50 tournys in Luton.  And you seem to take my call as an indication that I always make this play.

[Simon Galloway]

You've got a very thick recipe book there if under the JT section there is enough material to include all the macro influences that went into making up the call.

The call is ok Simon. But what happened was you looked down and saw a playable hand you wanted to defend with and called.

What happened was I looked down and folded.  Mentally.  If the dispute of the raise size had been resolved quicker, or hadn't happened at all, I would have physically folded too.  That's how marginal it was, which I have explained before, and yet people seem to think it is my standard play there.  The button folding, for example, would also have led to my folding the hand, so I think I have laid out clearly how often I defend with JT as a rule.  It's far from standard for me, but even now on reflection I don't mind the call at all.  Halley's comet will come around again before all those variables line up again at the table.   As it was, I had enough time to think about what was happening, and what it might mean.  I struggle to imagine that many would consider as many variables as I did whilst the dispute unfolded for a 300 chip raise. 

It's a funny old world if you can be ok to gamble for all of it on the turn with ace high and a draw, but you are not allowed to gamble with a small call preflop.

[thetank]

This is the problem of defending you BB with hands that do very bad against a LP raise

An aggressive player is going to raise from the C/O with every single hand that has you dominated. QT KT AT QJ KJ AJ, as well as TT JJ QQ KK AA, you are defending into 1300 pot with 3600 back, if you flop top pair what the fck do you do? Even when you flop a draw you toast chips.

Your not playing deep enough to call to flop a draw to play streets.

Instead of telling Claw she should check behind on the turn maybe the better idea would be to look at your own play and stop spewing pre!

[thetank]

When you have position, sometimes you should think about using it.  

What's to say she didn't think about using it?

[Simon Galloway]

YBA.
I was at the table and I don't think Claire did consider using it.  Or perhaps that was using it, but not in the same way, reacting to my apparent show of weakness on the turn. 

I'm pretty much done with the disection of this hand, but I will throw my tuppeneth in on other threads here.

[ShatnerPants]

I've been following this hand with interest, coz I read it and thought the answer was simple.

But I kept quiet coz I expected the thinking to go many levels above mine.  And I was right.

But now the deep stuff seems to have settled, can I ask a question.

Are there times when good players take the thinking too far ?

I'm thinking NLHE for beginners.  By anybody.  Chapter 1 page 1

Don't go busto on a draw.  ( Not talking about pushing with a draw as a semi bluff. )

If the bet was pot commiting to a push back over the top, isn't it by definition a bad bet ?

Not trying to be disrespectful to players sooooo much better than me. 

[action man]

preflop play is so so bad by both imo, claire completely telegraphing her hand, and simon making a terrible call pre with JT, i dont care who you are playing against/reads w/e its never a call this shallow.

Since this is a live game, and players dont pass JT preflop JT is a huge part of his range when he C/C flop. So im taking a free card on the turn not expecting him to fold to the bet, and mtl shoving, after we have bet we can't fold. Just need to get THUUUUUUUUUUUR.