analyse this!

[Simon Galloway]

Simon[/url] Galloway link=topic=36807.msg809137#msg809137 date=1221579683]

I've offered a ton of support for why I made the play and I have received precisely SFA useful info in return, apart from 'its too shallow for that' well no shit sherlock, I play them all the time.

I thought this post from Flushy was pretty decent and explains more than just the 'too shallow for that'.

This is the problem of defending you BB with hands that do very bad against a LP raise

An aggressive player is going to raise from the C/O with every single hand that has you dominated. QT KT AT QJ KJ AJ, as well as TT JJ QQ KK AA, you are defending into 1300 pot with 3600 back, if you flop top pair what the fck do you do? Even when you flop a draw you toast chips.

Your not playing deep enough to call to flop a draw to play streets.

The call is ok if you are sure you have a big edge over opponent on future streets.

If opponent played too passively and folded too much for example. Evidently Claw is not this sort of player.

You might be able to get a good read on her to know when she has hit the flop, then calling is ok. JT might as well be ATC though if this is the case.


actionman doesn't believe you were able to gain this edge, I'm sure he has read your reasoning, but believes it to be in error. You disagree, that's fair enough. You can't say that a case has not been put forward though.

Ok a case has been put forward.  But to start with Aj is the top end of the range, and next thing I  am in the world of hurt to JJ+ AK+  well which is it?  Does she have a wide range or not?  The case put forward isnt consistent.  I have played with Claire a good few times and I believe I have given her game due respect in a previous post on this thread.  That said, I think Claire would admit that I have had the upper hand in most recent encounters.  That's not to say that's how the long run will pan out, but atm I believe it will have crossed her mind.  It might not have, but that was my view, and I couldn't really ask her during the hand to confirm, so that's what I went with.  So floating is a part of this, the fact that it was JT is secondary.

[thetank]

But to start with Aj is the top end of the range, and next thing I  am in the world of hurt to JJ+ AK+  well which is it?  Does she have a wide range or not?  The case put forward isnt consistent.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here.

As far as I could see the point made was this...

An aggressive player is going to raise from the C/O with every single hand that has you dominated. QT KT AT QJ KJ AJ, as well as TT JJ QQ KK AA, you are defending into 1300 pot with 3600 back, if you flop top pair what the fck do you do? Even when you flop a draw you toast chips.

I'm not seeing the inconsistencies you're speaking of?

[MANTIS01]

OK, 2 things. First, those who can't put their solid oppo on 10-J because the call is so spewy are really doing themselves a disservice. How can you play against a hand you have already discounted? I thought 10-J was possible from the start.....because it is. Being able to accept your solid oppo may have 10-J is deffo going to help you in this hand, end of. But then if you do accept your solid oppo may have 10-J it stands to reason you must include that in your own calling range in this spot. If you don't then you must categorize your oppo as spewy solid which I would say is weird. Secondly people can't openly criticise the over-raise and then blame a man for under-calling. Yes a c/o raise is going to include x range, but we not talking about a standard raise, it's a raise we think is odd. Those who think the raise is heavy are going to look down, find a playable hand, and let her have the pot anyways. That's not like the stunning poker people are making it out to be.

[Simon Galloway]

I'm not seeing the inconsistencies you're speaking of?

You have AJh its towards the top of your range in the C/O don't narrow your oppo's range and inflate the pot all at the same time! If you never raise more than pot pre (obv excluding when you are short) then you won't go far wrong.

AJh is at the top end of a C/O range i am afraid, unless the C/O is a complete nit

Now she has AA minimum.  Inconsistent.

[thetank]

OK, 2 things. First, those who can't put their solid oppo on 10-J because the call is so spewy are really doing themselves a disservice. How can you play against a hand you have already discounted? I thought 10-J was possible from the start.....because it is. Being able to accept your solid oppo may have 10-J is deffo going to help you in this hand, end of.

What's to say they have attributed the attribute of 'solid' to the BB though.

By the sounds of things, people are now putting the poor chap on 'makes spewy calls pre' and so would not discount JT.

[MANTIS01]

Actually there were 3 things. People should stop being obsessed with their cards as well. I would want in on this situation and the fact 10-J is playable would make that situation more appealing. If 3 bricks hit the flop I might use my solid image to bet half the pot...and because villains are shallow they could fold very quickly.

Posted by: thetank

What's to say they have attributed the attribute of 'solid' to the BB though

TightEnd

[thetank]

the board is draw heavy though

KJ, K10, J10 type hands all interested in it

He doesn't seem to have discounted the possibility tho

[Simon Galloway]

What's to say they have attributed the attribute of 'solid' to the BB though.

I would have thought the best interpretation to understand would be from OP...

Exhibit A:

I am dealt  in the cut off.  Folded to me, and I raise to 400.  Button (weaker player) calls as does big blind (solid player). 

[celtic]

whole thread is a sham as the hand was reported properly.

[thetank]

v good Exhibit A, but I'm not talking about the OP, but was in reply to a post Mantis made about the people who would discount a solid player making the call w. JT. Those players may have different definitions of the word solid and not have placed you in that category if they saw you play a hand like this.



Whole thread just looks like this to an outsider...

I'm calling Claw with any two coz she's a women and so must be pants at poker.

When she wins all my chips, I'll be sure to let her know what she did wrong.

[Simon Galloway]

v good Exhibit A, but I'm not talking about the OP, but was in reply to a post Mantis made about the people who would discount a solid player making the call w. JT. Those players may have different definitions of the word solid and not have placed you in that category if they saw you play a hand like this.



Whole thread just looks like this to an outsider...

I'm calling Claw with any two coz she's a women and so must be pants at poker.

When she wins all my chips, I'll be sure to let her know what she did wrong.

Now thats just pure shite.

(re) read the whole thread.

[Royal Flush]

I'm not seeing the inconsistencies you're speaking of?

You have AJh its towards the top of your range in the C/O don't narrow your oppo's range and inflate the pot all at the same time! If you never raise more than pot pre (obv excluding when you are short) then you won't go far wrong.

AJh is at the top end of a C/O range i am afraid, unless the C/O is a complete nit

Now she has AA minimum.  Inconsistent.

When did i say she only has AA? I said she raises every single hand that you are a big dog too, she also raises hands that you are 60-40 against some you will be 70-30 against and others that you are 50-50 against. AJ is deffo at the stronger end of claires range.

I don't see where the inconsistency is in this.

As for being a solid player, this thread has clearly proven the OP read to be wrong.

[thetank]

Simon[/url] Galloway link=topic=36807.msg809266#msg809266 date=1221587068]

v good Exhibit A, but I'm not talking about the OP, but was in reply to a post Mantis made about the people who would discount a solid player making the call w. JT. Those players may have different definitions of the word solid and not have placed you in that category if they saw you play a hand like this.



Whole thread just looks like this to an outsider...

I'm calling Claw with any two coz she's a women and so must be pants at poker.

When she wins all my chips, I'll be sure to let her know what she did wrong.

Now thats just pure shite.

(re) read the whole thread.

Hope it's shite, but it's the impression some may get. I know you've said that you think a lot of Claw's game but I'm not altogether sure if the actions reflect that in a convincing way. May not be true, just the way it reads.

As for re-reading the whole thread, I'll probably leave it ta. Still got 987 books I must read before I die and most of them are probably better than this.


Has been an interesting one and I've learned a couple of things but I'll leave it at that.

[Claw75]

OK - this thread seems to have turned into a bit of a slate-simon-athon and I'm feeling a wee bit to blame by starting it.  To be fair to him, he hasn't asked for his play to be analysed, he just happens to have been involved in the hand that I've posted asking for analysis of my play - perhaps it's best left now.  That said, I do feel I have learnt a lot from the thread, so thanks for the comments.

[Simon Galloway]

I knew some bright spark would challenge AA minimum.  You say AJ is the top end - then all of a sudden TT+ comes into the reckoning when it looks like you have previously discounted it.

Not once do you seem to have looked up from your high volume long run magic formula to consider the merit (or otherwise) of ever playing a hand differently.  If you tell me you never play a hand sub-optimally (for whatever reason) then I simply don't believe you.

Next time anyone decides to take a sub-optimal route in a hand, that makes them a non-solid player.

Right.