DTD £300 DEEPSTACK ... MAY

[kinboshi]

I cannot believe I have just wasted 15 minutes of my life reading the last couple of pages of this thread.

You have AK on the button on a five handed table and an aggro player reraises you from the BB.

You should be getting your chips in the middle so fast there should be scorch marks on the table.

I think we established somewhere in this thread that although the bb is considered an aggressive player he had been passive of late which made a few think his range would be a lot narrower... i just think here we have a very specific situation here where a fold is a considered play... i dont think saying there is only one way to play this hand like nearly all hands is right...thats got to be narrow and naive thinking...keith i know your an excellent player and better than most of us put together but its just a point of view before everyone gets their flaming rockets out..i just don't like going from cl to out without considering all options..
This thought process of never backing down has got to be a little flawed and is born of the internet generation where it doesnt matter if you get knocked out as theres another tourney in 30 seconds.... its well documented that AK is the most overplayed hand in hold em

we have a live ft bubble situation here where 3 betting wide is more exception than rule,and as for being results orientated like i said i don't care if the guy shows me 3 6 os whilst smiling smugly to himself..so what....i still not unhappy with my play....im playing to win not to flip coins when i dont have to and reducing the outcome of my tournament to pure luck

Villian has already said he is 3 betting junk.

Where is it documented that AK is overplayed.

If you're gonna raise/fold AK on the button why don't you just open fold?

Villian has already said he is 3 betting junk.

he said he is capable of 3b junk but he hasnt actually done this v hero in recent hands, im sure he had plenty of junk to hero open raise previousley so why not pull the trigger previousley..as much as young mr morgan have us believe he has in fact tightened up as subconciousley he doesnt actually want to get involved with the cl on the ft bubble...its a lot easier to be 3b when u look down at kings

Where is it documented that AK is overplayed.

there have been numerous articles over the last few years

If you're gonna raise/fold AK on the button why don't you just open fold?

as i have said i think cstack..positions..tournament stage come together to make this a specific situation...v any of the others who have 200k etc its insta ship and on many many occassions its insta allin as i have and we all have many times.. i dont think you can think ur committed with ak pre with only 4% of your stack in the middle

Dean what do u think he does with AQ here? Or pocket 10s? Or AK? You are getting caught up on the fact he had kings. Why didn't you say something earlier when Claire won a monster pot with QQ vs AK? That was just as big a flip at that stage of the tournament. What if Claire had Aces? Would u be saying young Mr Dean Morgan should have folded Kings? After all he is involved with the only stack who can bust him on the bubble of a final table.

Please can I have a link to the said articles about the over use of AK.

Right so I'm asking again, if you're going to raise/fold AK why not just open fold so you have nothing invested? IE: Fold to the final table is basically what you're advocating here?

http://is.gd/c1Cn3

[DMorgan]

Would u be saying young Mr Dean Morgan should have folded Kings?

Dan

On the subject of folding, I'm definitely not folding QQ and I think JJ is really close. TT is a pretty clear fold though I think

[George2Loose]

Would u be saying young Mr Dean Morgan should have folded Kings?

Dan

On the subject of folding, I'm definitely not folding QQ and I think JJ is really close. TT is a pretty clear fold though I think

Sorry Dean

[the sicilian]

I cannot believe I have just wasted 15 minutes of my life reading the last couple of pages of this thread.

You have AK on the button on a five handed table and an aggro player reraises you from the BB.

You should be getting your chips in the middle so fast there should be scorch marks on the table.

I think we established somewhere in this thread that although the bb is considered an aggressive player he had been passive of late which made a few think his range would be a lot narrower... i just think here we have a very specific situation here where a fold is a considered play... i dont think saying there is only one way to play this hand like nearly all hands is right...thats got to be narrow and naive thinking...keith i know your an excellent player and better than most of us put together but its just a point of view before everyone gets their flaming rockets out..i just don't like going from cl to out without considering all options..
This thought process of never backing down has got to be a little flawed and is born of the internet generation where it doesnt matter if you get knocked out as theres another tourney in 30 seconds.... its well documented that AK is the most overplayed hand in hold em

we have a live ft bubble situation here where 3 betting wide is more exception than rule,and as for being results orientated like i said i don't care if the guy shows me 3 6 os whilst smiling smugly to himself..so what....i still not unhappy with my play....im playing to win not to flip coins when i dont have to and reducing the outcome of my tournament to pure luck

Villian has already said he is 3 betting junk.

Where is it documented that AK is overplayed.

If you're gonna raise/fold AK on the button why don't you just open fold?

Villian has already said he is 3 betting junk.

he said he is capable of 3b junk but he hasnt actually done this v hero in recent hands, im sure he had plenty of junk to hero open raise previously so why not pull the trigger previously..as much as young mr morgan have us believe he has in fact tightened up as subconsciously he doesn't actually want to get involved with the cl on the ft bubble...its a lot easier to be 3b when u look down at kings

Where is it documented that AK is overplayed.

there have been numerous articles over the last few years

If you're gonna raise/fold AK on the button why don't you just open fold?

as i have said i think cstack..positions..tournament stage come together to make this a specific situation...v any of the others who have 200k etc its insta ship and on many many occasions its insta allin as i have and we all have many times.. i dont think you can think ur committed with ak pre with only 4% of your stack in the middle

Dean what do u think he does with AQ here? Or pocket 10s? Or AK? You are getting caught up on the fact he had kings. Why didn't you say something earlier when Claire won a monster pot with QQ vs AK? That was just as big a flip at that stage of the tournament. What if Claire had Aces? Would u be saying young Mr Dean Morgan should have folded Kings? After all he is involved with the only stack who can bust him on the bubble of a final table.

Please can I have a link to the said articles about the over use of AK.

Right so I'm asking again, if you're going to raise/fold AK why not just open fold so you have nothing invested? IE: Fold to the final table is basically what you're advocating here?

George...

First im not saying the play is wrong at all... i have and will 4 bet shove AK pre flop...( amusingly enough i did this tonight in the luton £100 and my live nit oppo lays QQ pre flop )my whole point here irrespective of hands is the situatuion..10 hands further down the line my line on the hand could be completely different.. the discussion is....is there another way this hand could have gone at this very specific juncture of the tournament... if you say no thats fair enough and i respect that as you are a good tournament player...but i just think its good to think and discuss ways to play hands.... of course im not open folding AK...but i like to gather all the info and circumstances available to make an informed decision  ... sometimes its good to play a little passive it does have some merit...

I think opening our minds to different ways of thinking has got to be a great thing as we are all..to a man still learning....

im sure 10 years ago the established thinking was you should never 3 bet with anything but aces and kings and the established thinkers at the time probably similarly questioned the bloke that came along and suggested you started 3 betting with less than premium..

Without realising you have become the establishment...


dint think i saw the QQ hand

will look back through some articals about ak overplay..ive read several in the usual suspect mags...

[the sicilian]

Would u be saying young Mr Dean Morgan should have folded Kings?

Dan

On the subject of folding, I'm definitely not folding QQ and I think JJ is really close. TT is a pretty clear fold though I think

Sorry Dean

i dont mind his better than me...

[MANTIS01]

If it's folded round to me in the cutoff in a cash game where I and my opponents have 100bbs and I have 0% of my stack in the middle, I'm committed with AK.

And +1 to George's question to Mantis, what hands are you 3betting exactly?

It seems like I'm putting all the content into this discussion about 3betting ranges. Why don't you and George explain how you can profitably 3bet atc in this spot and why that's such a superior strat in negotiating this shallow ft bubble dynamic than mine. I mean, I'm sure it's shit hot poker, but I'd still like to hear the theory.

why not give your range here? I mean youve been asked enough times

I have not said you can profitably 3 bet atc. In fact I'm not advocating it at all. What I am saying is that my range for 3 betting here is either premiums or air. I think you've picked up on Dean's comment about Claire not folding too much and clung onto it. I suspect Claire is only 4-betting the top end of her range so 3 betting air here could be profitable- again it would depend on dynamics and history. I'm certainly going to be putting the pressure on at this stage.

As Me, Keys and Greeky have said would be nice to know you're 3 betting range and how you would react to a 4 bet with each of these hands.

You say we can 3bet air profitably dependent on dynamics and history. The history is villain has an aggro image and hasn't folded to 3bets. So much so hero confidently 3bets his kings for value against this villain who he is sure wont fold. That is the history. But we shouldn't cling to the history right? We should make another history up that suits your point better. Afterall you suspect Claire is only 4betting the top of her range. Wait, how is your knowledge of how Claire plays relevant here? I have already discussed the dynamics in detail. I too would be putting the pressure on at this stage...something you can do more effectively vs shorter stacks...cos there's better dynamics and history...making it more profitable.

[outragous76]

this thread is comedy

hand played itself - i only questioned it at first because it seemed like a huge over shove without knowing stacks (and being 1 blind level behind)

[George2Loose]

If it's folded round to me in the cutoff in a cash game where I and my opponents have 100bbs and I have 0% of my stack in the middle, I'm committed with AK.

And +1 to George's question to Mantis, what hands are you 3betting exactly?

It seems like I'm putting all the content into this discussion about 3betting ranges. Why don't you and George explain how you can profitably 3bet atc in this spot and why that's such a superior strat in negotiating this shallow ft bubble dynamic than mine. I mean, I'm sure it's shit hot poker, but I'd still like to hear the theory.

why not give your range here? I mean youve been asked enough times

I have not said you can profitably 3 bet atc. In fact I'm not advocating it at all. What I am saying is that my range for 3 betting here is either premiums or air. I think you've picked up on Dean's comment about Claire not folding too much and clung onto it. I suspect Claire is only 4-betting the top end of her range so 3 betting air here could be profitable- again it would depend on dynamics and history. I'm certainly going to be putting the pressure on at this stage.

As Me, Keys and Greeky have said would be nice to know you're 3 betting range and how you would react to a 4 bet with each of these hands.

You say we can 3bet air profitably dependent on dynamics and history. The history is villain has an aggro image and hasn't folded to 3bets. So much so hero confidently 3bets his kings for value against this villain who he is sure wont fold. That is the history. But we shouldn't cling to the history right? We should make another history up that suits your point better. Afterall you suspect Claire is only 4betting the top of her range. Wait, how is your knowledge of how Claire plays relevant here? I have already discussed the dynamics in detail. I too would be putting the pressure on at this stage...something you can do more effectively vs shorter stacks...cos there's better dynamics and history...making it more profitable.

U haven't really read or understood anything I've put

And you still haven't answered any specific questions- it's just all rhetoric and hyperbole.

When is the last time you made it this deep in a £300+ event with this type of structure?

[BAM]

this thread is handbags

I'm amazed this is still going on! why do people tilt themselves over a difference in strat thinking on the t'internets??

[MANTIS01]

sorry for not answering all the questions I didn't know I was supposed to be in the well this week..

Last time I played live (last Sunday) I made the f/t from 150 players, last time I played a £300 I made the f/t, last time I played a £1k I made the f/t. Range is 99+/AQ+ for the next 3 orbits at least although that may change if the dynamic changes.

Easy to see over the last few pages who's got the credible ideas and who the trolls are...

[TightEnd]

and I can see what is going to happen here

So in advance.

No flaming. Please debate civilly and with respect for others whatever their opinions.

thanks

[kinboshi]

Seriously though, these 'debates' do help a lot of players I reckon.  Gets people thinking about how they approach the game.  They can also learn what to bring into their approach, and what to leave out...

[byronkincaid]

sorry for not answering all the questions I didn't know I was supposed to be in the well this week..

Last time I played live (last Sunday) I made the f/t from 150 players, last time I played a £300 I made the f/t, last time I played a £1k I made the f/t. Range is 99+/AQ+ for the next 3 orbits at least although that may change if the dynamic changes.

Easy to see over the last few pages who's got the credible ideas and who the trolls are...

are you looking to get all in pre flop with all these hands?

[EvilPie]

sorry for not answering all the questions I didn't know I was supposed to be in the well this week..

Last time I played live (last Sunday) I made the f/t from 150 players, last time I played a £300 I made the f/t, last time I played a £1k I made the f/t. Range is 99+/AQ+ for the next 3 orbits at least although that may change if the dynamic changes.

Easy to see over the last few pages who's got the credible ideas and who the trolls are...

Is this your 3 bet range?

If it is then basically you're looking at letting the aggro player totally run this bubble because you aren't going to hit this range very often at all.

I assume also that without QQ+ or AK you're not looking to call a shove or shove over a 4 bet?

So effectively you're going to wait for a big hand before 3 betting and then lay it down if you come up against any resistance?

This strat is very exploitable mate especially when the blinds and antes are big.

What does 3 orbits have to do with anything? Are you trying to create a tighter image or do think it is more likely that you can pretend to have a good hand if you haven't 3 bet for a while?

[GreekStein]

sorry for not answering all the questions I didn't know I was supposed to be in the well this week..

Last time I played live (last Sunday) I made the f/t from 150 players, last time I played a £300 I made the f/t, last time I played a £1k I made the f/t. Range is 99+/AQ+ for the next 3 orbits at least although that may change if the dynamic changes.

Easy to see over the last few pages who's got the credible ideas and who the trolls are...

Yes your poker thoughts are credible and James Keys talks nonsense.

Link to hendon mob? Curious to see your impressive record with such a high strike rate of final tables.