Live feeds and hole cards: Ethics and considerations

[Dubai]

Wasn't this exactly what happened with the WSOP final table Stuart Fox played in a year or two back? Players were locked in a black hole or something with no communication allowed.

In your opinion, Is this the direction poker should go in?

Why should players PAY to play and be forced into revealing their hole cards for nothing? It's not a sport. We aren't paid to entertain

[dik9]

Please don't get me wrong here, as a TD I detest TV Production crews in poker, they interfere with everything and mess players about, but if it is entertaining then people want to watch.

6 years ago every player was fighting for TV time (could lead to sponsorship by getting your name out there to the masses) now sponsorship is drying up the same players arent quite so sure.

There was a notice on the front door of DTD warning players that this system was operating for this comp, players could choose to play it or not.

If a player studies HSP for months he will get to know a higher profile players game, just as a football team will review opponents last matches and change their starting line up accordingly.

If someone does their homework ... fairplay.

In the situation of yesterdays final, I would be straight on a computer reviewing my opponents play during breaks if I am honest. Do I agree with it? Possibly not but if everyone else has that option it is fair.

For the record, I think yesterday was a trial, it may  or may not have worked but I didn't hear any players complaining which was my main worry.

[Woodsey]

The feed was entertaining but would have been just as good without hole cards imo

Nah....

[George2Loose]

The feed was entertaining but would have been just as good without hole cards imo

Nah....

I know I'm the minority on this one. I actually enjoy watching poker without hole cards with commentary. Someone like Jp kelly doing it would be great as was Busquet when he did the WSOP.

[roscopiko]

The feed was entertaining but would have been just as good without hole cards imo

Agree with this.

Pretty sure Genting are rolling these tables out across their group in the near future too with plans to stream online as well as in house.

[MANTIS01]

I agree that the process is terrible and DTD need to seriously consider whether they want to persist with this strategy. I might be an old-fashioned type of player but the way I see things is that you spend most of your time creating an image in a tournament and significantly less of the time trading off that image. The time you spend trading off your carefully crafted image is the most profitable thou. If another player has a mind to question that image they must put chips into the pot to see the proof of the pudding at showdown. If in fact players can be told for sure that you are actually opening light during the game then poker becomes a mockery. All your work goes down the drain. It also takes away a lot of the skill and perception of the game because you are getting free information that you shouldn't be entitled to. You should decide for yourself during a game what range to ascribe another player. That info should not just be handed to you for free.

Not saying anything about Alex and don't want to diminish his victory. WP sir. But the process is a farce imo.

Are you saying that there should be no televised poker at all? Or updates for that matter?

Huh no, televised poker a week after the comp is finished is fine cos it doesn't affect that game at all. As a player if you think people will learn your tendancies for the next game then you can change your strat for the next game if you want. And updates don't reveal anything that the players at the table don't already know. What I don't want is during a game my oppos being told I'm not actually the rock they think I am.

[gatso]

would've been better if the pics and sound were synced. by the time I got to see people's holecards preflop jp had already told me all about the betting and the board and had moved on to the next hand. hard to tell how entertaining it is when it's not working right

[AndrewT]

As others have said, live poker with commentary but no hole cards is just as good if not better (if commentators are good) than having the hole cards.

Hole cards can't help but make everything very results-orientated, which is super dull.

I didn't watch the live stream but were there tracking chips in the chips, so that each bet size and pot won was exact? For the purposes of following a live stream this is more important if the commentators can't track the bets accurately due to being too far away.

[jakally]

The feed was entertaining but would have been just as good without hole cards imo

Disagree with this  George.
Hole cards add so much to TV poker..... why do you think it's popularity increased hugely once technology made this possible?

[George2Loose]

The feed was entertaining but would have been just as good without hole cards imo

Disagree with this  George.
Hole cards add so much to TV poker..... why do you think it's popularity increased hugely once technology made this possible?

Cos 6 years ago people were generally shit and would have literally no idea about what was going on. There's enough poker on tv with hole cards for the public

Watching poker without hole cards is obv good for me but not for Joe public. I doubt Joe public is actually watching a web stream so without hole cards is fine. Think the Irish Open got a lot of viewers I believe.

[MANTIS01]

Also what's stopping somebody studying body language and noticing a tell when a player has a big hand and passing that tell onto their friend sat at the table? Their friend has not noticed such a tell themselves so shouldn't have that info spoon fed to them by somebody with better abilities.

[redarmi]

Think it depends what level the viewer is at really.  People on this forum (ie generally good players) are happy not to have hole cards because they find entertainment in assigning ranges to players and listening to great players like Busquet doing the same.  Fish need the hole cards to get the entertainment out of it and that plays a big role in attracting them to the game.  In terms of this comp I doubt more than 5% of the audience watching the stream were in the latter category so i doubt it really matters and the fact that it undermines the game probably makes it a negative overall imo.

[Boba Fett]

I cant believe so many players dislike the hole cards on TV.  I think its great and can only be great for poker.  I watched most of the live stream, having the hole cards and reasonable commentators made it way more interesting to watch than watching a live stream where the only hands we see are those that are tabled.  Its about as exciting as railing the table if you're actually at the event and people never do that anyway unless they have a friend at the final.  It increases the interest in the game and the players at that time and surely that can only be a good thing?

And I cant see how it can provide a disadvantage, everyone is aware of it, everyone can use it however they like.  Everyone knows that after 30 minutes its possible that everyone at the tables knows what you had and how you played your hands so as a player you can adjust accordingly and means there is probably more of a need for balancing ranges.

The 3 most recent events I remember most that I watched online recently were this FT, the 48 hour cash game from DTD and the WSOP ME coverage as opposed to the other WSOP FT's with no hole cards or commentary I only turned the streams on in the background when I knew someone on the FT and I havent watched live streams of any other tourneys.  If the extra coverage can entice a random to watch that wouldnt have watched otherwise then I think it must be something that can be a benefit to the game.

[Dubai]

But there are no randoms viewing a link on a poker website! Only poker players - which is why comparisons to televised poker are fundamentally ridiculous

[jakally]

and reasonable commentators made it way more interesting to watch

Forgot about this........ thought JP Kelly was excellent yesterday.