Live feeds and hole cards: Ethics and considerations

[redarmi]

Weird paragraphing - tick
Seemingly random use of capital letters in the middle of sentence - tick
Bizarre accusations -tick
Unwilling to identify themselves - tick

Yes folks i think it is fair to say we have a troll.

[titaniumbean]

Weird paragraphing - tick
Seemingly random use of capital letters in the middle of sentence - tick
Bizarre accusations -tick
Unwilling to identify themselves - tick

Yes folks i think it is fair to say we have a troll.

Hi der!

[MANTIS01]

May I thank all those who have responded to my post, and yes many of you may not like it or its tone but I'm glad the controversial nature of this has been discussed, albeit it rather brief and somewhat misguided.
 Secondly, may I add that who I may be, what I have achieved in life , be it on or off the felt, whether I played in this tournament or not, or even if I like the colour blue has no bearing on the reason behind my post. Also it would benefit no one on this forum if I were to reveal my name as I am not acquainted/associated with anyone on here, I'm just part time player with a love for the game.
 My post was intended to get players and the community alike to address such issues as this, as I feel it's a detriment to the game that we all call ‘poker’.
 As stated in my first post I thought the game of poker was about SITUATIONS and the information and conclusions YOU YOURSELF extract from what YOUR opponents are feeding (or not) YOU.
  I for one am saddened by the fact that many people on here "would do the same thing", is this the new game of poker?? where NOT only are you playing your opponents but  ‘Team X’ is too?
 I am all for research on players before any tournament, but, I believe the information from past tournaments can only give you a general idea of the players you are up against. How do you know what MOOD your opponent is in today without getting on the felt with them?? In the end we're all human and free will rules, so however 'player X' played in one tournament doesn't equate to 'player X' playing every single tournament the same way, after all, poker is about SITUATIONS..
  The difference lies here, the information you're receiving from someone watching a live feed (be it time delayed or not) is that YOU get to know EXACTLY how your OPPONENT is playing and that you can always make that crucial fold knowing that you will be privy to that information later, in days gone by you had to PAY TO SEE or forever question yourself if you made the correct play, which as we all know can be a major turning point in any players tournament. (and very few players will change up their style within the half hour or so unless a major development takes place)
  I certainly don't want to see streaming stopped, I'd personally not rather see hole cards myself but what will be will be..
 And now to my real issue…
 Alex.. I'm not disputing the fact that you played well, not at all, may I congratulate you on your win and well played. My major issue is that you INTENTIONALLY set out exploit the fact it was being streamed. Whether you cheated or not, YOU still had the mentality to PREMEDITATE COLLUSION. The sad fact is you did it out in the open for the world to see via twitter...Well, barring some of your friends it seems..... Epic fail dude..
Thus you have my point of discussion… Where does a player draw the line?? Do we employ every exploit and trick in the book, e-book and non books there is to win?? or do we try promote the game as a SPORTING GENTLEMAN’S game and try assure those who want to join the poker community that it's not full of cheats and scam artists? After all, the money at stake is there to be won by the players participating who paid entry to play, no one else…  TY and GL all

The thing is the issue is significant in terms of the future in poker. Like I said earlier poker is a game of information so any new info introduced into the current game from outside is important and should be discussed properly. But you made a ridic big fuck up with the way you presented your op and turned that issue into a slanderous attack on a regular individual. It is obv that you played in this event and saw yourself at a disadvantage, but rather than put the streaming format on the table to discuss you blamed and flamed another player for that disadvantage and now the debate has gone haywire and you can't get it back on track. It is the process you should have been pissed with. Thing is I do think you were at a disadvantage and that needs to be addressed by DTD imo. Are they happy to persist with a strat that makes the playing field less than level? You think random old guys in their 60's/70's have got a big rail of iphone streamers??

What's more as players we pay juice for a venue to facilitate a tournament but the venue/comp are putting more restrictions on how they will do this. It's like pay us to host the tournament and you must do things the way we want things done. Huh ok, but why are the players paying for the way the venue wants things done? Like Dubai says we are not paid to entertain others. Who would be happy to play online knowing 5 or 6 individuals are in a little room seeing everyone's cards? What if you refuse to show your hole cards at DTD are you seriously getting bumped from the tournament? What if everyone refuses? Tournament over? But you paid juice to play? What if I can get somebody in that room? Aren't I just taking "advantage of the situation" better than anyone else?

Would people be happy to see a friend of an oppo standing behind you looking at your cards if you had a guarantee no discussions till the break? So yeah lots of serious stuff to discuss but you fucked it all by calling a fellow member a cheat and now all you've got is peeps posting pics of trolls. Wp. Oh and I agree about the accusations of poor presentation and wording.

[dik9]

Can I just point out, players were requested to put their hole cards in a marked box on the table so that the cameras could view. Everyone seemed happy to do so, no one objected ..... Just seems the people pissed with it are the people that were watching??

h, seems to be the only person with doubts that actually played on the feature table and I hope I have reassured him with the questions he wanted answers too.

[GreekStein]

9BallCP - you are very silly.

[Nico29]

May I thank all those who have responded to my post, and yes many of you may not like it or its tone but I'm glad the controversial nature of this has been discussed, albeit it rather brief and somewhat misguided.
 Secondly, may I add that who I may be, what I have achieved in life , be it on or off the felt, whether I played in this tournament or not, or even if I like the colour blue has no bearing on the reason behind my post. Also it would benefit no one on this forum if I were to reveal my name as I am not acquainted/associated with anyone on here, I'm just part time player with a love for the game.
 My post was intended to get players and the community alike to address such issues as this, as I feel it's a detriment to the game that we all call ‘poker’.
 As stated in my first post I thought the game of poker was about SITUATIONS and the information and conclusions YOU YOURSELF extract from what YOUR opponents are feeding (or not) YOU.
  I for one am saddened by the fact that many people on here "would do the same thing", is this the new game of poker?? where NOT only are you playing your opponents but  ‘Team X’ is too?
 I am all for research on players before any tournament, but, I believe the information from past tournaments can only give you a general idea of the players you are up against. How do you know what MOOD your opponent is in today without getting on the felt with them?? In the end we're all human and free will rules, so however 'player X' played in one tournament doesn't equate to 'player X' playing every single tournament the same way, after all, poker is about SITUATIONS..
  The difference lies here, the information you're receiving from someone watching a live feed (be it time delayed or not) is that YOU get to know EXACTLY how your OPPONENT is playing and that you can always make that crucial fold knowing that you will be privy to that information later, in days gone by you had to PAY TO SEE or forever question yourself if you made the correct play, which as we all know can be a major turning point in any players tournament. (and very few players will change up their style within the half hour or so unless a major development takes place)
  I certainly don't want to see streaming stopped, I'd personally not rather see hole cards myself but what will be will be..
 And now to my real issue…
 Alex.. I'm not disputing the fact that you played well, not at all, may I congratulate you on your win and well played. My major issue is that you INTENTIONALLY set out exploit the fact it was being streamed. Whether you cheated or not, YOU still had the mentality to PREMEDITATE COLLUSION. The sad fact is you did it out in the open for the world to see via twitter...Well, barring some of your friends it seems..... Epic fail dude..
Thus you have my point of discussion… Where does a player draw the line?? Do we employ every exploit and trick in the book, e-book and non books there is to win?? or do we try promote the game as a SPORTING GENTLEMAN’S game and try assure those who want to join the poker community that it's not full of cheats and scam artists? After all, the money at stake is there to be won by the players participating who paid entry to play, no one else…  TY and GL all

Big yawn@no paras.

I think this is just a level, some parts of his english are atrocious and some are quite 'swallowed dictionary' type.

But overall yawnaments.

Wd alex and meh 2 all this.

[Junior Senior]

Wow! Alex cheated to win?! Who knew!!!!!!

[MANTIS01]

Can I just point out, players were requested to put their hole cards in a marked box on the table so that the cameras could view. Everyone seemed happy to do so, no one objected ..... Just seems the people pissed with it are the people that were watching??

h, seems to be the only person with doubts that actually played on the feature table and I hope I have reassured him with the questions he wanted answers too.

Do you really think poker players are happy to expose their hole cards during a live game? Even at a regular showdown it often turns into a right feckin drama with a stand off and one guy flips one card and then the other guy flips one. And that's at showdown when you must show. Next time you play and you fold a hand pls ask the other guy to show you his hand and see how readily he grants your request. The 30 mins live stream means you might as well just flip every hand over because the table is getting that info anyway. I wonder why people have never been keen to flip hands over during a game all this time? Either that info is very important or it isn't. Also not sure why you have to be seated at ft to have a valid opinion.

[dik9]

I don't think you listened to my point, players were requested to put their hole cards in a box, all did without question. I am not going to disqualify a player if they didn't want to put their cards in the box am I?

Of course anyone can have an opinion, I am just stating that no one who actually played on the stream expressed they had problem with it to me?

Can I also say that it was a lovely final to TD, no bullshit just poker.

[Longines]

I don't think you listened to my point, players were requested to put their hole cards in a box, all did without question. I am not going to disqualify a player if they didn't want to put their cards in the box am I?

When you requested their cooperation was it made explicitly clear that they could decline without penalty?

[ripple11]

 
Would people be happy to see a friend of an oppo standing behind you looking at your cards if you had a guarantee no discussions till the break?

Exactly

[Jon MW]

I don't think you listened to my point, players were requested to put their hole cards in a box, all did without question. I am not going to disqualify a player if they didn't want to put their cards in the box am I?
...

Were they requested to, or were they told to?

If it's clear that you have the option to keep your hole cards to yourself then I think it's much less of an issue.

... You think random old guys in their 60's/70's have got a big rail of iphone streamers??
...

The example I was thinking of was people travelling from abroad aren't going to have a load of people on the rail to talk with at the break, which also works for most people who have travelled any distance, if you're not a tournament regular then you're not going to have much of a rail unless it's your local event.

[dik9]

I don't think you listened to my point, players were requested to put their hole cards in a box, all did without question. I am not going to disqualify a player if they didn't want to put their cards in the box am I?

When you requested their cooperation was it made explicitly clear that they could decline without penalty?

Nope, didn't think it would be necessary as under what rule could I give them a penalty? As far as I was concerned it was advertised as a live stream so they were all happy entering that competition. I had no requests from any player to avoid that table.

[dik9]

Were they requested to, or were they told to?

Before they went on to the table I asked them " when you receive your cards could you place them in the box please so the camera can identify them?". No one said do I have to?

Saying that, I did see a dealer talk into the mic and then alter a players cards so they fitted into the box. I don't know what the crew said to the dealer as I was unfortunately not in the loop ( which I wasn't happy about lol). When the dealer went to correct the players cards the player himself corrected the cards to fit in box.

[MANTIS01]

Some good points being raised now. I would wager that if I refused to show hole cards and that was deemed ok every single other player would snap refuse to do so as well. They don't want me having an advantage see? The reason people appeared happy was a) because it's a new thing to have down your local bricks and mortar so these issues haven't been explored properly b) People happy to make ft and more focussed on the $$ and the game not factors they can't control c) People thinking it's a level playing field cos all cards exposed. Yet afterwards when things are digested people can easily think wait a sec I went to Notts on my jack jones and that put me at a big disadvantage. So rather than say peeps were happy and no probs last time what do you think about next time?