Staking deals and markup. Discussion?

[Boba Fett]

Although its not great value in a lot of cases I dont think its bad to buy or sell pieces in a 70/30 after stakeback deal.  Some people might genuinely not be able to afford it and will be a good sweat in the tournament however if I saw someone putting these up and had a big cash or several cashes and theyre still putting up staking threads for the same deal Id be wondering wtf theyre doing.

Being freerolled is fine but I think its bad form if you get some results and have the money to buy more of yourself but are happy just to keep freerolling.  You're taking money out of the poker community at no expense to yourself with no intention of putting any back in.

[bobby1]

Hi Railtard,

I would take a % of you in a heartbeat at 1.15/1.16 and I don't think we have ever met. I know Greg but I wouldn't take a % at 1.4. At 1.15/1.16 and putting the % amount of cash in that you do on your staking threads then I would take a % of Greg in a heartbeat too because it is the right price.

[railtard1]

Although its not great value in a lot of cases I dont think its bad to buy or sell pieces in a 70/30 after stakeback deal.  Some people might genuinely not be able to afford it and will be a good sweat in the tournament however if I saw someone putting these up and had a big cash or several cashes and theyre still putting up staking threads for the same deal Id be wondering wtf theyre doing.

Being freerolled is fine but I think its bad form if you get some results and have the money to buy more of yourself but are happy just to keep freerolling.  You're taking money out of the poker community at no expense to yourself with no intention of putting any back in.

yeh nice post m8, agree.

[Whollyflush]

Spot on bobby.

[Doobs]

I read almost every staking thread on this forum and have done for years and at times I think a player’s proposal represents value and if I have a few quid spare I get involved.  If I feel it isn’t value and I don’t want to invest, I ignore it. I take particular issue with Doobs here who for some reason feels he can publically decide, be judge and Jury and comment who is and who isn’t value... should we care about your opinion or just expect you to politely not get involved if you’re not interested? I wonder if you examine every item on eBay each day and flame the sale price and seller on their forum if they are selling their tut for a price you don’t like?...

I am pretty sure I have only ever commented once on a proposal on the staking board that I wasn't involved, and pretty much regretted it not long after.  Even then I was trying to be construcive, but realised it was never going to come across that way to some.  Hence I am not sure where you get the idea that I like to publically decide who is and who isn't value. 

I am not even sure why you have taken particular offence to me, and not the others who share the same view.  It seems you are doing exactly the same thing you accuse me of, by naming and shaming just the one person.

Anyway better be off, Bobby1 made my point far better than I did. 

Good night.

[PizzicatoXev]

Very good thread...

I think there are alot of good points in this thread and its certainly one I am going to keep bookmarked for the future...

I have spent pretty much the entirety of my poker career backed and have publically sold action elsewhere for varying different types of stakes. I have never actually sold a stake using markup before as I have always used the backers cut after stakeback method.  The main reason for that is due to the fact that I started on PTP where that system is used and written into the software. 99% of the times I have been involved in backing people I have also used the same method. While it may be considered by some as a clever way to disguise selling at a larger markup it may also be unfamiliarity with how markup itself works. Saying its a clever way to disguise asking for staking an 1.4/1 or w/e I think is somewhat unfair because if the person buying the action doesn't fully understand the numbers, thats his fault for buying something using a system he doesn't understand. Nobody is hiding from anything or deliberatly trying to decieve because if that was the case then 99% of the time there will be larger issues than just wether the guy posted using markup or backers cut.

Another thing that should be added is that I think that just because someone doesn't have their own money at stake, does not necessarily mean they are a bad horse. Its certainly a nice thing to see when looking at a player you don't know with limited results but I do think there is a stage where you can start to look past that type of consideration, wether it be because you know them or because of their results/history/vouches etc.

I do favour a free market system and I don't think that people should be stopped from posting stakes in using markup or backers cut. I do think the backers cut method is actually an easier method to use for some types of stakes (ie longer term stakes where br is being recycled multiple times) but that may also be due to my limited knowledge oh how markup works.

[the sicilian]

Although its not great value in a lot of cases I dont think its bad to buy or sell pieces in a 70/30 after stakeback deal.  Some people might genuinely not be able to afford it and will be a good sweat in the tournament however if I saw someone putting these up and had a big cash or several cashes and theyre still putting up staking threads for the same deal Id be wondering wtf theyre doing.

Being freerolled is fine but I think its bad form if you get some results and have the money to buy more of yourself but are happy just to keep freerolling.  You're taking money out of the poker community at no expense to yourself with no intention of putting any back in.

Good Post Boba...... I think to continue to risk none of your money on a regular basis without make up is not on.... as many have said cant pay..don't play

[claypole]

As has been said, a great thread. I think there are so many factors at play when staking - especially the community angle that exists on Blonde.

When I decide to stake someone, I consider three things in this order; do I think they represent good value, if less so, are they a member of the community I'd like to support (within reason), and do I want a punt.  I also consider the tournament and buy in and make a decision.  An example would be the recent £500 at DTD - I was happy to take a piece in Sharky and JJandellis based on the fact they were selling with minimal mu, had a couple of pieces of evidence that suggested "solid" and most that fall into this category will be decent value at spot at DTD in these diverse fields.  Clearly, the larger the investment, the more skewed my decision is towards the first point; good value.  Another important factor is trust; guess work at times but over time you get better. Good example, I'd trust Dubai, Trigg explicitly from a monetary perspective due to their historic behaviour with me, others I may think twice about.

I think the 70/30 deals don't represent good value; however I have a choice and if I am posting in a staking thread I have the accountability to make sure I know enough and know I am paying 1.4:1.3.  I had a small piece of Tom, no probs with that; stalwart of the community, top bloke, solid, and I wanted a punt.

Personally, when asking for staking I have a sort of personal code of ethics. When it's last minute and I think I'm asking for the favour, or it's just to reduce variance or allow me to practise BRM,I have sold at lower rates than I know I represent. Some have said that is stupid, however I see that as a situation where its a two way relationship.  I have also approached people direct and offered a discount, also given a discount to regular backers.  I think there's an element of customer service too - I haven't had to put a thread up for a while as I have small group of customers who will support; like to think some of that is because I keep them informed, pay promptly, offer the odd discount and play ok.

Marc is a good example of above as well, as he said he has sold pieces at 1.15 ish - he has his won reasons as he stated; what's not in doubt is incredible value, so he's created a customer base itching to take a piece whenever he posts.  Being an incred player clearly helps.

I guess is summary, my view on all of this is it's a personal choice of the staker and stakee and the market will be driven by supply and demand.  Our accountability as a community is to encourage and open and transparent market, where there is a good level of trust.  A consistent approach to pricing my help that.  The actual price; well it's all the factors you consider as an individual, personal to you.  I think a lot works here; someone correct me if I am wrong but I have not seen one staking "issue" or "grim" or issue with paying back - that's a great compliment to the members here and long may it continue.

[gatso]

I think a lot works here; someone correct me if I am wrong but I have not seen one staking "issue" or "grim" or issue with paying back - that's a great compliment to the members here and long may it continue.

did you remember to go to the doctor about your memory loss like I told you?

[claypole]

I think a lot works here; someone correct me if I am wrong but I have not seen one staking "issue" or "grim" or issue with paying back - that's a great compliment to the members here and long may it continue.

did you remember to go to the doctor about your memory loss like I told you?

Lol - really, poker wise? I was obv ignoring the one we don't mention - lets call it the sports betting one, as totally incomparable. If there are some I stand corrected

[MC]

All the people saying how great this thread is - are there some hidden links to porn that I don't see for some reason?

[gatso]

I think a lot works here; someone correct me if I am wrong but I have not seen one staking "issue" or "grim" or issue with paying back - that's a great compliment to the members here and long may it continue.

did you remember to go to the doctor about your memory loss like I told you?

Lol - really, poker wise? I was obv ignoring the one we don't mention - lets call it the sports betting one, as totally incomparable. If there are some I stand corrected

yeah, quite a few. nothing for a while though I don't think

[The Camel]

I don't play as much poker as I used to, and I use staking as a way of keeping a tiny bit of action in asome comps.

I have three criteria I use when I stake someone:

1. I trust the person implicitly
2. I like them.
3. I feel the stake is good value for me.

The smaller the stake, the less importance 3 has. If I was putting up £500 or so, 3 would be very important, but still not as important as 1 or 2.

For £100 or so, 3 is almost irrelevant.

Although definitely mathmatically unsound, my system has served me well and I do pretty well staking!

[Ironside]

All the people saying how great this thread is - are there some hidden links to porn that I don't see for some reason?

there is a charge to upgrade your account to see the hidden links

[Ironside]

I read almost every staking thread on this forum and have done for years and at times I think a player’s proposal represents value and if I have a few quid spare I get involved.  If I feel it isn’t value and I don’t want to invest, I ignore it. I take particular issue with Doobs here who for some reason feels he can publically decide, be judge and Jury and comment who is and who isn’t value... should we care about your opinion or just expect you to politely not get involved if you’re not interested? I wonder if you examine every item on eBay each day and flame the sale price and seller on their forum if they are selling their tut for a price you don’t like?...

I am pretty sure I have only ever commented once on a proposal on the staking board that I wasn't involved, and pretty much regretted it not long after.  Even then I was trying to be construcive, but realised it was never going to come across that way to some.  Hence I am not sure where you get the idea that I like to publically decide who is and who isn't value. 

I am not even sure why you have taken particular offence to me, and not the others who share the same view.  It seems you are doing exactly the same thing you accuse me of, by naming and shaming just the one person.

Anyway better be off, Bobby1 made my point far better than I did. 

Good night.

Greg meant Dubai not doobs I think