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Poll
Question: I prefer a Live Multi Day Tournament where
I have the option to re-enter the same day AND also the option to re-enter into future Day 1’s (max 4 bullets) - 78 (45.3%)
I only have the option to re-enter into Day 1b (max 2 bullets) - 22 (12.8%)
There is no re-entry option (max 1 bullet) - 72 (41.9%)
Total Voters: 171

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Author Topic: Poll: Your views required please on Re-entry tournaments  (Read 15081 times)
cambridgealex
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« Reply #30 on: June 12, 2012, 04:31:33 AM »

If it's unlimited, then it's most definitely putting an advantage in place to those with deeper pockets.

It isn't actually at all, although I understand how in one specific vacuum instance it seems like it is....

It actually offers no long term advantage at all to the people buying in more than once, what it does do though is it makes the prize pools bigger (albeit a little tougher in field strength) which is great if you're on 1 bullet. a £1k with a £150,000 prize pool is now, for you, a £1k with a £350,000 prize pool thumbs up

Not an advantage to those with deeper pockets per se, obviously it's a significant problem for those players with deeper pockets who are bad at poker.

Not sure what lilD is getting at here though, obviously if we're talking about winning players then of course reentry makes it worse for the fish. Extrapolate the problem to a heads up tournament where the good player wins 60% (for the sake of argument). Without re-entries, assuming zero rake, his ROI is 20% and thus the fish's ROI is -20%. With a reentry allowed for the good player (Mr. deep-pockets), he wins 1st bullet 60% of the time, then treating the 2nd bullet consistently i.e. he wins 1 buyin 60% of the time and has to do that twice, he wins from 2nd bullet 36% of the time. EV for the fish: 60% of the time, he loses 1, 40% of the time they play on, from where he still loses 1 36% of the time but wins 2 64% of the time:

(0.6*-1)+(0.4*0.36*-1)+(0.4*0.64*+2) = -0.232 = -23.2% ROI

Actually, now I think about it properly, when the fish wins the 1st, loses the 2nd but wins the 3rd all in, the winning player still has a 36% chance to win from there, it's a geometric progression I think and the fish's ROI gets even worse:

(0.4*0.6*0.4*0.6*0.6*-1) = -0.03456 = -3.5% so total -26.7% ROI, without the extra permutations where the chip lead goes back and forth more than 3 times. It probably tends towards 30% or so as x --> infinity

So, without spending any more money himself, the losing player's ROI goes from -20% to -26.7% if the good player is allowed to re-enter once. It gets much, much worse if the fish decides to re-enter as well.

All the above said, I am very much in favour of unlimited re-entries.

yada yada yada let's all play a £50 sng
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« Reply #31 on: June 12, 2012, 08:28:48 AM »

Thank you for the nearly 100 votes so far. More required please, takes under a minute to click a preference, thank you
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« Reply #32 on: June 12, 2012, 08:38:12 AM »

Not sure what lilD is getting at here though, obviously if we're talking about winning players then of course reentry makes it worse for the fish.

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All the above said, I am very much in favour of unlimited re-entries.


Nice work Jimbo Wink
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« Reply #33 on: June 12, 2012, 09:55:27 AM »

1 re-entry on the same day and the option to re-enter on later days seems the most sensible to me.

I don't have a problem at all with re-entries, it's good for the venues and it's good for the players on both small and large bankrolls.  If it means there are more games and bigger prize funds, I'm all for it.
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« Reply #34 on: June 12, 2012, 10:36:36 AM »

For me it depends on the buyin.

Lower buyin comps i'm happy with them. But on the other hand if it's just a nightly comp then i'd rather they were done within a few hours so i'm not a fan of big stacks/long structures for these, and re-entries only make that worse.

For higher buyin comps where i'm taking a shot i'd rather they weren't there. If a good player gets knocked out then I want them to stay knocked out. I don't want them back in the tournament. Seeing as i'm not going to be re-entering then it feels like an added advantage for the better players with deep pockets.

For me the poll needs to differentiate by bankroll. As it doesn't i've voted for generally no re-entries.
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« Reply #35 on: June 12, 2012, 10:38:21 AM »

Oh and as an aside I think the length of buyins/re-entries is important too.

I understand why places like DTD have them open for so long for travelling players.

But for a nightly comp then this period should be 1 hour max imo.
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« Reply #36 on: June 12, 2012, 12:56:16 PM »

Can anyone give a rationale for limited re-entries versus unlimited

Can't you get unlucky/ do yourself twice in such a long re-entry period ? Why not 3 times.

Really, why limit them ?

Agree with Cf's post 100% about this being a bankroll (and some relationship to ability) question. I'll flick in another 50 for a night out but I'm not ever flicking in another 500.
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« Reply #37 on: June 12, 2012, 01:17:57 PM »

One reason for not allowing re-entry on the same day is probably to encourage those who bust out to play cash instead of re-enter, and for that reason I'm in favour of limiting it to 1 entry per day.
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« Reply #38 on: June 12, 2012, 01:36:56 PM »

Certain tournies should have them. These bigger events shouldn't!!

playing the WSOP structure with 50k stacks. Not sure but is the ME  a re entry?!  Wink   

As for people saying well if i get a bad beat and have traveled 3 hours etc etc to play and they went out to bad play. So be it, its poker if you cant get used to a donkey knocking you out don't play poker... Simple's. Yes its annoying but its part of the game there is always the next event to play. If you cnat handle going out early then don't travel the distance to play.

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« Reply #39 on: June 12, 2012, 02:06:59 PM »

Reentry on same day better for travelling players like myself.

Would like to see min cash increase though as it doesnt even cover hotel and petrol for one night most of the time.
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« Reply #40 on: June 12, 2012, 07:55:05 PM »

Does there have to be an ongoing shedule of one or other (or other)? why cant there be a mixture of formats at all levels going forward? Is it because some will get confused?
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« Reply #41 on: June 12, 2012, 08:14:48 PM »

i don't see a problem with re-entries but i have never really seen them as making financial sense.
using the last £500  deepstack as an example

308 entries...if you are prepared to throw a rebuy in then you are prepared to spend £1000 which means min cash wont even give you a profit. we all aim to win but only 1 player will ever win a tournament.
so effectively in this tournament if you are spending £1000 to play you are looking for at least double that as a return minimum which would have been 13th place...14th-27th although in the money is only returning part of your buy in or a bit of froth...so you need to beat 96% of the field to get a half decent profit.

It's different online as min cash is usually 4-6 times the buy in.

so for me i can't see any benefit in live poker with the current payout levels but can online,  if players are willing to throw extra money in to the pot then that's up to them...it beefs the total prizepool up which otherwise wouldn't be so high.
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« Reply #42 on: June 12, 2012, 08:38:15 PM »


It's different online as min cash is usually 4-6 times the buy in.


It certainly isn't on stars.

I am not sure what you are getting at in the rest of the post tbh.
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« Reply #43 on: June 12, 2012, 08:50:36 PM »


It's different online as min cash is usually 4-6 times the buy in.


It certainly isn't on stars.

I am not sure what you are getting at in the rest of the post tbh.

in a nutshell my view was i don't mind having rebuys but i can't see the benefit when min cash wouldn't cover the 2 entry costs...the chances of getting in to a profit regularly if you rebuy regularly are very slim.
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« Reply #44 on: June 12, 2012, 09:05:24 PM »

Not sure what lilD is getting at here though, obviously if we're talking about winning players then of course reentry makes it worse for the fish.

田中真紀子氏「日中に有益なことを発言すべき」
田中氏は、現在の日本の与党である民主党トップは中国側と「深い信頼関係を結んでいる人」が少なく、両国は政治の相互不信に陥っている状態を改善する必要がある。そして「日中経済関係全体から見て、両国に共に有益なことを発言すべき」であると語った…
主要ニュース   アクセスTOP5   
馮昭奎:加藤氏は南京虐殺の史実を受け入れるべき
中国5月輸出入額の伸び予想上回る 過去最高に
日本右翼が釣魚島で釣り大会 関係悪化の火種に
中国、約700品目の輸入関税を年内引き下げ
在日華人企業、東北被災地小学校にパソコン180台
 編集者からのお薦めの特集
コラムニスト・陳言 「日本スケッチ」
   陳言氏は、1989年から2003年まで、東京大学、横浜国立大学、慶応大学で新聞学や経済学を専攻し…
中川コージ 「情熱的な羅針盤」
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東日本大震災1周年

All the above said, I am very much in favour of unlimited re-entries.


Nice work Jimbo Wink

I was working on the assumption that everyone had a =ROI for saying that deeper pockets didn't gain an influence, what you're saying is that better poker poker players are going to gain more profit over weaker players by being able to play what is affectively 3.something tournaments in the time/space we could traditionally play 1. Which I think goes without saying that if you have a losing expectation in a £1k (for e.g) you're going to lose more buying in 4 times than you will buying in once.
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