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Author Topic: Live Streams - Hole cards or not?  (Read 10368 times)
The Camel
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« Reply #60 on: September 25, 2012, 10:54:34 PM »

Anything that increases exposure of the game is a good thing and live streams with hole cards are obv what people want.  It's clearly good for the game and I think that the information that can be gleaned during a few hours at a feature table is marginal at best.

It's not looking like the players "obv want" hole cards to be seen.

4:1 against in the players poll atm.

Blonde isn't a fair representation of the poker economy tho.  The user base is generally far more advanced in their poker journey.  We don't need to be converted as we will go wherever the value is. The hole cards cater far more to the casual player and for that reason they should stay.

I would also imagine that you'd get the same kind of feedback over a certain live stream commentator.  Here it would be endless hate.....but if you did a random poll of the stream viewers then most would be very happy with the level of commentary.

We live in a kind of bubble in blonde and it's very easy to forget that and act/think accordingly.

I think blonde represents the whole gamut of poker players.

From EPT and WSOP Bracelet winners to Mantis and Tikay.

Can't get much more of a wide cross section of the poker playing public than that.

I agree that blonde has a massively wide range of players that participate on the site, but I think its fair to say that the average blonde will have put more time into their game, be more aware of whats going on in the poker scene, have more friends/acquaintances in the poker, have far more experience of the game and the environments it's played in. 

Of course there are many posters/lurkers here who are casual, but I think the vast majority probably dedicate a massive amount of their time in life to poker. 

I think if you are going to tune into to a live stream of the EPO you are going to be pretty dedicated pokerist.
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« Reply #61 on: September 25, 2012, 11:50:11 PM »

My phone rang once and when I answered the following conversation occurred:

"Hello, this is xxx from Full Tilt Poker"

"Hi"

"I'd like to invite you to participate in the Full Tilt Speed Poker Championship in London next week"

"Thanks. How much is the entry?"

"Five thousand pounds"

"How many in the field?"

"36"

"Nice. How much are you adding to the prizepool?"

"Errr. Nothing"

"Oh. How much will give me towards my expenses?"

"Ummm. Zero I'm afraid"

"Oh. So what incentive is there for me to play?"

"You might get the chance to play on tv against Phil Ivey, Patrik Antonious or Erik Seidel who are all confirmed entrants!"

I hung up.






You're going up and up in my thoughts every day at this rate Sir Keith...

wp.
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« Reply #62 on: September 26, 2012, 12:01:03 AM »

I think the most important point is that a delayed live stream affects the play of the game due to players finding out within 1 orbit what their opponents were holding and more importantly folding.

It's a real shame that it only really affects the £500/1000 buy ins too, which is unfair to players trying to so called "breakthrough" to the next (ept) level.

It is quite clearly shit for players as it not like an edited wsop season episode where you may 2 hands every 100 played. You actually can see every hand dealt. It's like STT heaven after 3 orbits if you have a good buddy on the rail.

I would nearly go as far as to say I don't think the gambling commission would think it is gambling in a open and transparent way which is 1 of their only 3 remits.

Any live hole card transmissions should have 24 delay minimum surely?

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« Reply #63 on: September 26, 2012, 12:10:42 AM »

Have found this a very interesting thread and do think the Camel puts his point across very well. My feeling is we have to look at the wider issues here. Firstly there are very few sports/games ( dont want to create a separate argument as to which poker is ) were the players pay their own prizemoney and are then charged a fee on top for the privilege. A fee which  some event organisers at the moment seem to think has no limit.
     If live streaming with hole cards leads to more marketing value to organisers and internet poker company's should we perhaps look at not weather we want it but Rather can it benefit us? and if so how. My feeling at the moment is that live poker lacks player power and until we acknowledge this we will continue to pay increasing costs and subjected to live streams or whatever.

We missed the boat years ago Mike.

We should have done this when tv poker first came on the scene.

If players had refused to play unless money was added to tv tournaments, it would have been.

The Party Poker World Open. Headline sponsor adds nothing to the prizepool. Can you imagine Federer or Woods playing a similar event in their respective sports?

Instead a few players grabbed the opportunity to get their boats on tv and got a reputation far beyond their ability (prime example: Devilfish) and made fortunes in sponsorship money.

Meanwhile the majority of poker players got zilch from the tv boom.

I can see your point with the stream/hole card stuff but I think you're way off with the TV comments.  So many players in the UK got into the game by watching it on tv, from as far back as the original Late Night Poker shows.  A large percentage of the player pool of any poker community live or online in the UK probably got into the game through watching it on tv.  The liquidity of the UK poker scene could theoretically be way worse off right now if, when they tried to arrange those tv shows, the players told them to GTFO because they didnt want to show their cards.

And to me it seems a decent amount of players that were on tv benefitted as I could name a bunch of them that seem to continually be invited to them and get sponsorship deals without having done anything of note for a good few years.
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« Reply #64 on: September 26, 2012, 12:27:40 AM »

If poker players don't like live streams of their hole cards can boycott these streamed events right, with the amazing online comps such as WCOOP, there is plenty of unstreamed poker action.

The reasons we introduced live streaming at DTD were;

1. Players partcipating in our bigger events asked us ' why dont you do streaming, we would like it'

2. We felt the expense of setting up the steaming may encourage recreational viewers to play our satellites to win their way into streamed events

On another point, our cash game players asked us a few months ago if we would stream their £2-£5 cash game Friday night, we said we might but we wud see it more of a service to those players and whoever wanted to watch a streamed cash game, rather than something commercial

Player demand dictates what happens in live poker, if players don't want streaming, they will not enter. Look at the popularity of the GPS, they have streamed from the start. I wud say overall, streaming is here to stay based on demand for it by the overall poker community. I remember when certain pros were up in arms about Late Night Poker showing their hole cards, they refused to play series 1 (I didn't mind), these same players were then the first to ring up the Late Night Poker organizers and try and get onto series 2! I remember there were a few interesting conversations about players who got onto future Late Night Poker series shows even though they had completely slated the first series and refused to participate.

As an ex professional player, I would say that if the poker industry had focussed on what the professional players wanted, it would be a much smaller industry. Maybe that's not such a bad thing, but that's what I think.

Cheers Aces
« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 12:41:41 AM by DTD-ACES » Logged

The Camel
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« Reply #65 on: September 26, 2012, 12:35:56 AM »

Have found this a very interesting thread and do think the Camel puts his point across very well. My feeling is we have to look at the wider issues here. Firstly there are very few sports/games ( dont want to create a separate argument as to which poker is ) were the players pay their own prizemoney and are then charged a fee on top for the privilege. A fee which  some event organisers at the moment seem to think has no limit.
     If live streaming with hole cards leads to more marketing value to organisers and internet poker company's should we perhaps look at not weather we want it but Rather can it benefit us? and if so how. My feeling at the moment is that live poker lacks player power and until we acknowledge this we will continue to pay increasing costs and subjected to live streams or whatever.

We missed the boat years ago Mike.

We should have done this when tv poker first came on the scene.

If players had refused to play unless money was added to tv tournaments, it would have been.

The Party Poker World Open. Headline sponsor adds nothing to the prizepool. Can you imagine Federer or Woods playing a similar event in their respective sports?

Instead a few players grabbed the opportunity to get their boats on tv and got a reputation far beyond their ability (prime example: Devilfish) and made fortunes in sponsorship money.

Meanwhile the majority of poker players got zilch from the tv boom.

I can see your point with the stream/hole card stuff but I think you're way off with the TV comments.  So many players in the UK got into the game by watching it on tv, from as far back as the original Late Night Poker shows.  A large percentage of the player pool of any poker community live or online in the UK probably got into the game through watching it on tv.  The liquidity of the UK poker scene could theoretically be way worse off right now if, when they tried to arrange those tv shows, the players told them to GTFO because they didnt want to show their cards.

And to me it seems a decent amount of players that were on tv benefitted as I could name a bunch of them that seem to continually be invited to them and get sponsorship deals without having done anything of note for a good few years.

Yeah, maybe you are right.

But my point is that the real winners of the poker boom are the online cardrooms (and the promoters and organisers of live poker tournaments).

Remember only about 5% of poker players are winners.

It wouldn't have hurt them at all to pump a few quid into the tv tournaments, and all it would have taken was for Devilfish, the Hendon Mob, Simon Trumper and a few others to say they weren't going to appear on a tv tournament unless the sponsor boosted the prizepool by 20%.
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« Reply #66 on: September 26, 2012, 12:40:19 AM »

Players who dont like live streams of their hole cards can boycots these events right?

 The reasons we introduced live streaming at DTD were;

1. Players partcipating in our bigger events asked us ' why dont you do streaming?'

2. It may encourage viewers to play satellites to the streamed events

Our cash game players have asked us if we can stream their cash game Friday night, we have said we might but it's not like we feels it's really commercial beneficial, we wud see it more of a service.

Player demand dictated what happens in live poker, if players don't want streaming, they will not enter. Look at the popularity of the GPS, they have streamed from the start.

I wud say overall, streaming is here to stay based on demand for it by the overall poker community.

I remember when certain players were up in arms about Late NIght Poker showing their hole cards, they refused to play series 1, these same players were then the first to try and ring up the Late Night Poker organizers and try and get onto series 2!




If you look at the player poll Simon, approx 80% of players are against live streaming with hole cards. You could easily do a stream without showing the pocket cards.

I have been asked to appear in tv tournaments at least 10 times and only agreed once.

Not because I didn't want to show my cards, but because I thought sponsors should add money to the prizepool.

I played in the William Hill tournament which added 50 grand (I think, it might have been more) to the prizepool and paid my expenses in full.

Hat's off to Mr bobby1, who worked for Hills in those days and who looked after the players brilliantly.

« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 12:42:44 AM by The Camel » Logged

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« Reply #67 on: September 26, 2012, 12:47:09 AM »

Yes Keith, I get what you are saying. An interesting poll would be:

1. You 8 players have now made the final table out of 500 entries, do you want your hole cards to be shown?

2. You 492 that have been knocked out plus everyone else that didn't enter, do you want the 8 players at the final table hole cards shown?

It would be also interesting run 10 events with streaming + hole cards, and 10 of the same events without streaming (no hole cards), and see which events got more entries and therefore larger prize pools.

As far as DTD are concerned, I believe the cost/effort of streaming outweighs the business benefits, so if all our members prefer no live streaming, or streaming without hold cards, that would be no problem with us.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 12:53:59 AM by DTD-ACES » Logged

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« Reply #68 on: September 26, 2012, 12:57:56 AM »

Yes Keith, I get what you are saying. An interesting poll would be:

1. You 8 players have now made the final table out of 500 entries, do you want your hole cards to be shown?

2. You 492 that have been knocked out plus everyone else that didn't enter, do you want the 8 players at the final table hole cards shown?

I would be also interesting run 10 events with streaming + hole cards, and 10 of the same events without streaming (no hole cards), and see which events got more entries and therefore larger prize pools.


The players at the table and the integrity of the game is most important.

What was happening at the EPO was ridiculous.

Players were constantly on their iphones checking hands played 30 minutes previously.

If player X saw player Player Y open three times in 2 orbits with 72o, it would make him alot more likely to 3 bet with air, wouldn't it?

It undoubtedly changed the flow of the game.

Live streaming/tv coverage should not influence the course of the game imo.

I would be really surprised if the lack of hole cards would affect the popularity of the stream. Both Tighty and Vicky Coren said they it was better without showing the pocket holdings.
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« Reply #69 on: September 26, 2012, 01:01:00 AM »

Yes Keith, I get what you are saying. An interesting poll would be:

1. You 8 players have now made the final table out of 500 entries, do you want your hole cards to be shown?

2. You 492 that have been knocked out plus everyone else that didn't enter, do you want the 8 players at the final table hole cards shown?

It would be also interesting run 10 events with streaming + hole cards, and 10 of the same events without streaming (no hole cards), and see which events got more entries and therefore larger prize pools.

As far as DTD are concerned, I believe the cost/effort of streaming outweighs the business benefits, so if all our members prefer no live streaming, or streaming without hold cards, that would be no problem with us.

That's why I made two polls.

The players seem clearly and decisively against the showing of hole cards during a live stream.

Viewers it is less clear cut obv, although most agree they would watch the coverage with or without hole cards.

But, it's a case of who is more important, the players or the viewers?
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« Reply #70 on: September 26, 2012, 01:23:33 AM »

"Both Tighty and Vicky Coren said they it was better without showing the pocket holdings."

A small point. I said I preferred commentating on action without hole cards. Not that it was better.

It's a stretch to say that watching without hole cards is better for the viewer, in my opinion. For the player involved who might worry about game integrity and game flow, quite possibly. I suggest that very very few of those who reach finals that I commentate on give a monkeys about game flow and game integrity being compromised by hole cards shown on a delay. They've cashed, often well into five figures, and they look to maximise that.

(and thats from the perspective of someone with nothing like the experience of many of the UK commentators including Simon Trumper)


On another point, and one close to my heart, the poker players lack an established trade body/association etc to lobby effectively other stakeholders in live and online poker such as organisers, sponsors, regulators etc.

A final point is the big big picture. Yes the players are important, but without the venue making an attractive return for putting on major tournaments, then the player has no game, or at best a more restricted choice than now

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« Reply #71 on: September 26, 2012, 01:37:16 AM »

"Both Tighty and Vicky Coren said they it was better without showing the pocket holdings."

A small point. I said I preferred commentating on action without hole cards. Not that it was better.

It's a stretch to say that watching without hole cards is better for the viewer, in my opinion. For the player involved who might worry about game integrity and game flow, quite possibly. I suggest that very very few of those who reach finals that I commentate on give a monkeys about game flow and game integrity being compromised by hole cards shown on a delay. They've cashed, often well into five figures, and they look to maximise that.

(and thats from the perspective of someone with nothing like the experience of many of the UK commentators including Simon Trumper)


On another point, and one close to my heart, the poker players lack an established trade body/association etc to lobby effectively other stakeholders in live and online poker such as organisers, sponsors, regulators etc.

A final point is the big big picture. Yes the players are important, but without the venue making an attractive return for putting on major tournaments, then the player has no game, or at best a more restricted choice than now



Apologies, I didn't intentionally misquote you, I just didn't make the correct distinction. That is what Vicky said too.

Years ago I tried to organise a players association/union.

But no one could be arsed.

I really don't think the players have benefited to the extent they should have from the poker boom.

If players had been organised and properly represented from the start, we wouldn't have been ripped off by the likes of Barry Hearn, who once said he loved poker players so much because all he had to do was put them on tv and they were happy. (I'm paraphrasing obviously).

I doubt I'll be going back to the Fox or the EPO. The tournament had very little value, they took too much juice (even Dubai moaned about paying 9% on a 2 grand tournie), Fox is a horrible venue and I definitely didn't like the attitude of the cardroom manager when I expressed my concerns about their live stream.

Your final point is well made of course. But without the players there would be no venues.

It's a two way street, if they look after us, as DTD does, we'll show up in massive numbers.

If they treat the players like shit, they will lose custom. Look what has happened to the fields at the Bellagio.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 01:40:18 AM by The Camel » Logged

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« Reply #72 on: September 26, 2012, 02:09:13 AM »

If poker players don't like live streams of their hole cards can boycott these streamed events right, with the amazing online comps such as WCOOP, there is plenty of unstreamed poker action.

The reasons we introduced live streaming at DTD were;

1. Players partcipating in our bigger events asked us ' why dont you do streaming, we would like it'

2. We felt the expense of setting up the steaming may encourage recreational viewers to play our satellites to win their way into streamed events

On another point, our cash game players asked us a few months ago if we would stream their £2-£5 cash game Friday night, we said we might but we wud see it more of a service to those players and whoever wanted to watch a streamed cash game, rather than something commercial

Player demand dictates what happens in live poker, if players don't want streaming, they will not enter. Look at the popularity of the GPS, they have streamed from the start. I wud say overall, streaming is here to stay based on demand for it by the overall poker community. I remember when certain pros were up in arms about Late Night Poker showing their hole cards, they refused to play series 1 (I didn't mind), these same players were then the first to ring up the Late Night Poker organizers and try and get onto series 2! I remember there were a few interesting conversations about players who got onto future Late Night Poker series shows even though they had completely slated the first series and refused to participate.

As an ex professional player, I would say that if the poker industry had focussed on what the professional players wanted, it would be a much smaller industry. Maybe that's not such a bad thing, but that's what I think.

Cheers Aces

This is so true, a lot of the players were regular at the Rainbow Casino.
How was the Poker Million on the Isle of Man done, as that is probably the first live tournament I can remember showing hole cards and no-one definitely passed on information on what John Duthie was playing, or the whole thing may have had a different result.
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« Reply #73 on: September 26, 2012, 02:14:02 AM »

I don't see much point in not showing the hole cards, because it just limits the point of wanting to watch the live stream. I know many who say (including me) that they turn off when they watched the table 9 handed, as all you could see was the players back.

Without hole cards on view, it just makes it terribly boring.
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« Reply #74 on: September 26, 2012, 02:54:21 AM »

My god watching without hole cards would be so drab.

Obviously the majority want to see hole cards because the majority are knocked out. How things pan out from here doesn't affect them so all that's left is a good viewing experience. On the other hand the final players in an organised competition only want a good playing experience and how things pan out only affects them.

I think people will become more organised at using this information in the future and that will be to the detriment of the tournament experience of others.

btw people wanting to stream cash games for fun sounds like some kinda moody shit.
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