whats my stack worth?

[theprawnidentity]

As I said before.  It doesnt matter where the money is, your edge remains the same.  The MU is more about covering your travel costs / overheads in this case.  At 1.3 thats allowing yourself 700 euro (about £580) travel, accomodation and food expenses for up to five days or w/e it is.  And taking into account London prices I dont think this is at all unreasonable.

If you sell 50% at this rate, and you can do the trip for £290 or less, you would be essentially freerollin it.

[millidonk]

Why should stakers have to pay for the for a nice couple of nights in a hotel & train fare? What benefit is that to us? why not tip the taxi driver, have a bottle of champers and a stripper on us while you're at it..

Charging £3k for a day 2 is a joke, charging mark up to cover expenses is a joke, the way people over estimate their edge on the field is often a joke. 1% for a fiver is pushing it imo! A mincash would return like 1/5 of a stakers outlay, just horrific.

Will be interesting to see how well these staking threads do priced up like this..

[YEAHMAN123]

Why should stakers have to pay for the for a nice couple of nights in a hotel & train fare? What benefit is that to us? why not tip the taxi driver, have a bottle of champers and a stripper on us while you're at it..

Charging £3k for a day 2 is a joke, charging mark up to cover expenses is a joke, the way people over estimate their edge on the field is often a joke. 1% for a fiver is pushing it imo! A mincash would return like 1/5 of a stakers outlay, just horrific.

Will be interesting to see how well these staking threads do priced up like this..

hi milli,
i would not expect regular backers to go on me though, im happy to give my winnings to friends and people i trust. if im advised to mark up a little then i will if not then i wont simples. i understand ur argument milli however if it pays 50% of the field the gamble is far less than a standard comp paying only 10% of the field. i have watched and read the staking thread on here for a while now and some of that is very questionable but then again its not what i do so my knowledge is limited

id need to sell 80% if i find a strip club lol jk

[theprawnidentity]

I understand this thread to be from the point of view of the seller, not the person buying.  I was merely outlining a plan of what Ross should allow for the trip in terms of his own personal finances.

From the stakers point of view, buying this package at 30% seems completely reasonable.  A competent player should have wayyyy more than a 30% ROI in this tournament, therefore making it a profitable investment.  If you don't like it, don't buy.  Why should the player give up all of their edge for free?

As for comments about place X paying out amount Y, absolutely irrelevant.

[smurf]

As for comments about place X paying out amount Y, absolutely irrelevant.



Forgetting the rights and wrongs of percentages this bit I just can't understand, surely anyone investing money in any venture/investment in any place in the world would want to know if you achieve x your investment will return y, thats just basic investment information - poker staking is obviously different then?

[outragous76]

As for comments about place X paying out amount Y, absolutely irrelevant.



Forgetting the rights and wrongs of percentages this bit I just can't understand, surely anyone investing money in any venture/investment in any place in the world would want to know if you achieve x your investment will return y, thats just basic investment information - poker staking is obviously different then?

Im with you smurf

Their point is that the " intrinsic value" of the seat doesnt change.

The likelihood of a return however is very different. Even moreso the likelihood of a "normal expected return" vs most structures.

I guess the key with these (if you accept a 3k seat value) is choose your horses wisely. A horse who is "always going to mincash and therefore return" is not the guy to be backing in this tourney

[theprawnidentity]

As for comments about place X paying out amount Y, absolutely irrelevant.

Forgetting the rights and wrongs of percentages this bit I just can't understand, surely anyone investing money in any venture/investment in any place in the world would want to know if you achieve x your investment will return y, thats just basic investment information - poker staking is obviously different then?

It comes down to you investing the buy in and making x% return over the long run.  Stakers might like to know that they can return x amount if the player wins, but its basically irrelevant.  If the tournament has 1000 entrants or 100k entrants and we assume the ROI for both is the same, all that changes is the variance associated with it.  We win 1st place less frequently but still make the same return over a big enough sample.

[mondatoo]

So if someone sells directly into Day 2 nobody would expect them to sell at less than spot, obv.

But if someone plays day 1 and makes day 2 with 4/5ths of the stack you'd have if you bought directly into day 2 it's worth nowhere near the same amount ??

 

[millidonk]

As I said before.  It doesnt matter where the money is, your edge remains the same. The MU is more about covering your travel costs / overheads in this case.  At 1.3 thats allowing yourself 700 euro (about £580) travel, accomodation and food expenses for up to five days or w/e it is.  And taking into account London prices I dont think this is at all unreasonable.

If you sell 50% at this rate, and you can do the trip for £290 or less, you would be essentially freerollin it.

I understand this thread to be from the point of view of the seller, not the person buying.  I was merely outlining a plan of what Ross should allow for the trip in terms of his own personal finances.

From the stakers point of view, buying this package at 30% seems completely reasonable.  A competent player should have wayyyy more than a 30% ROI in this tournament, therefore making it a profitable investment.  If you don't like it, don't buy.  Why should the player give up all of their edge for free?

As for comments about place X paying out amount Y, absolutely irrelevant.

Those two comments don't seem to add up. To me it reads that you have chosen a markup with the sole intention of making sure your expenses are covered, which is pretty ool imo. A lot of people do it, but at least keep it quiet and just include it in the edge.

The X paying Y argument is very debatable, but if a competent player should have way more than a 30% roi, then the fact is that for a package priced at 3k, it would mean a person would have to finish in the top 99 which I actually think is fair, if they are indeed truely competent!

Yeahman, you are correct in saying it pays 50% of the field, but it doesn't really matter as for any staker to see a positive return you would have to be in the top 10%. (For this one single tournament, we are not judging your roi over a 10,000 mtt sample, we just want to know what you have to do to show us a profit in this one tournament)

tomsom, from reading your diary I am quite surprised at your standing itt, however I 100% agree with don't like, don't buy and often put this into practice. 

We shall soon see everyone's opinon when a multitude of threads go up selling @ 3k.

[david3103]

The idea that this will be a 'soft' field puzzles me.

Will there not be a significant group of pros buying direct into Day 2?

[OverTheBorder]

I do not think this should be classed as a 3k tournament, it is a 300 euro tournament with an option to buy an average stack, those who pay the 50k and start with more than OP are likely to be mainly players comfortable playing for this sort of money and for example Jake Cody (who could sell at 1.5+ for a normal tournament) can walk up and pay 3k for 50,000 chips, would you want to pay spot at 3k for Ross on 48,000?

I would refer to a lot of the point in Geordieneil's beer staking thread where he looked at charging around 3.0 or 4.0 on the deepstack buy in, having made day 2 above average.  I think in essence it is the same as the payout structure is not designed as a 3k tournament.  I think charging something like 100-150 euros for 10% is as high as people will go, if it sells better then good luck.

FWIW I would not stake anyone in the world in this tournament for a 3k base.  I think the best players could get away with spot, and recreationals actually have -ve ratings on a 3k price due to payout structure.

[millidonk]

So if someone sells directly into Day 2 nobody would expect them to sell at less than spot, obv.

But if someone plays day 1 and makes day 2 with 4/5ths of the stack you'd have if you bought directly into day 2 it's worth nowhere near the same amount ??

 

Took me a second to figure out what side of the fence you were on.. although fair point Monda, but I doubt someone selling direct into day 2 would say I fancy getting a first class train, a few stellas, maybe a couple of ploughmans from the cart and a balla suite in the local premier so I am charging @1.3 nor do I think they would say you also you get 1/5 of your money back if I finish in the top 50% of players..

Does this same argument hold if they go in with a 1/3 or less of a day 2 direct buy in stack or less. (fwiw I am well aware this isn't the case for yeahman) 

This isn't your average £3k comp.

[mondatoo]

So if someone sells directly into Day 2 nobody would expect them to sell at less than spot, obv.

But if someone plays day 1 and makes day 2 with 4/5ths of the stack you'd have if you bought directly into day 2 it's worth nowhere near the same amount ??

 

Took me a second to figure out what side of the fence you were on.. although fair point Monda, but I doubt someone selling direct into day 2 would say I fancy getting a first class train, a few stellas, maybe a couple of ploughmans from the cart and a balla suite in the local premier so I am charging @1.3 nor do I think they would say you also you get 1/5 of your money back if I finish in the top 50% of players..

Does this same argument hold if they go in with a 1/3 or less of a day 2 direct buy in stack or less. (fwiw I am well aware this isn't the case for yeahman) 

This isn't your average £3k comp.

LOL.

I totally agree that people shouldn't increase there mark up to cover expenses, delusional self confidence is a much better reason :p

[smurf]

Loving the healthy debate but I bet yeahman is now more unsure than he was when he first asked the question

[outragous76]

Yeaman needs to think about this differently. It sounds as thou he is selling to his mates too and not on open forum and that this thread was for advice.