Woolwich shooting

[pokerfan]

http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Sierraleone/forces.html

[kinboshi]

http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Sierraleone/forces.html

Yeah, Sierra Leone shouldn't have been included in that list. It was actually an example of a relatively successful intervention.

[MANTIS01]

Yeah agree, sadly our foreign policy sucks.

What strikes me is how cold-hearted and aggro we can be in somebody else's backyard but become all liberal and compassionate when it kicks off in ours.

i'm not quite sure what exactly you'd refer to as compassionate and liberal.

lots of the commenting I've seen in the aftermath has been nothing but illiberal and vindictive.

Talking about government policy rather than opinions on FB/twitter.

These two guys had known links to Anjem Choudary who preaches hate against us. Yet not only do we allow him to live at liberty in our country we ship him £25k in benefits every year for the pleasure. It seems kinda liberal not only to allow a citizen to influence terror attacks upon us but to actually finance it aswell. We allow people to stand in Wotton Bassett booing and jeering as the bodies of our soldiers are brought home with signs saying burn in hell. Seems weird that people have the freedom of speech to do that but the speaker's wife can't say "innocent face" without uproar and prosecution. We aren't allowed to deport Abu Qatada because other countries say so. We must adhere to human rights at every turn. Try doing any of that shit in downtown Kabul and see what happens. I can see why support for UKIP is growing.

And that is exactly what are troops are fighting for a lot of the time.

What do you think about that Kin? If we consider the loss of innocent life, the reprisal terror attacks, and the fact we don't have any money, is there any value in fighting for free speech in far away lands?

To be honest, if our young men and women were fighting and dying for the freedom of people across the world then it's probably a just reason to consider war.

However, when people were being massacred in Sierra Leone, Congo, Mali, Somalia, Rwanda, Ethiopia, and many others - our governments were less interested in getting involved. So maybe a desire to liberate and protect oppressed people isn't actually the reason for our involvement.

That's my problem with war. It's those in charge who decide where and who we will fight, based on whatever agenda they want to serve; whilst it's the brave people of the armed forces who have to actually do the killing and dying. If any radical islamists wanted to act against the wars they think are wrong, then their targets should surely be the politicians and leaders, not off-duty soldiers. But this just remphasises that this was the act of sick, deluded individuals. Just like those that blew up and killed more than 20 in Niger only a few days ago.

This question was put to David Cameron recently and he said Britain didn't have the resources to intervene everywhere but we would continue to help out where we could. But I wonder if that stance is really worth it these days? Part of the reason we went to Afghanistan was to disrupt terror training cells so I supported it because that is the new style home defence. But the terror camps just fcked off to Somalia or wherever and we were left fighting for free speech and training the army. I don't know why that's our job and whether the price is worth it. What if the taliban just come back after we go? Back to square one. If we possessed a lot of the world's wealth I could maybe understand us fighting for principles in foreign places and luxuries for foreign peoples, but as we're skint it seems we're operating above our station and just inviting trouble to our shores.

[kinboshi]

Think that the truth is that we're often fighting to ensure lucrative trade contracts and the like for the future. So it's probably considered as an investment.

As for our 'duty' to act as global police, I think the UN has a very important role. The richer and strongest in terms of numbers and military technology are probably obliged to do their bit. Morally, I think the countries who can provide troops, money and other 'stuff' should be involved in protecting people who are subject to oppressive regimes. The question is who decides when to intervene and what action to take? Look at the mess in Syria, and the question of other countries intervening. 

We can all see how instability and domestic issues can affect other countries, including the UK. One obvious direct result of civil war is an influx of refugees coming to the UK and other 'safe' countries. Then long term sees a country in economic strife and people looking to move to the UK simply for a better life with more opportunities for them and their families.

[titaniumbean]

it's not like 'we' the west/wealthier countries give actual freedom or do most stuff above board anyway. it's just a slightly diff kind of oppression. obv may well be better than what they are struggling under but still seems pretty ridic to feel like white knights when we are so selective and only get involved when there is a financial incentive.



annoyed me no end all the people saying the security services should have done more, how on earth can you stop an English person taking a knife from the kitchen and doing something ridic?  yet when we got information from the security services about a certain man in a hole having no naughty stuff we ignored them because we know best.... so ridic tilting.

[Doobs]

Going to have to some pretty successful mines with large Western holdings to get all that money we have pissed away back?

Surely you'd just buy mining interests somewhere a bit easier if you want to make a buck? 

Whilst there may be some financial incentive somewhere down the line, there is also a lot of truth in us getting involved there because the situation there was affecting us?  And we really can't intervene in that scale everywhere that needs it even if you really would like to in an ideal World.  Ofc I am not even going to begin to defend the Iraq war.  FWIW Somalia is Ava's example, the US did intervene, and I can't see much long term benefit right now.

I don't think it is easy making these choices, we didn't cop for too much condemnation for the Libyan involvement, but if we did Syria too, are we likely to get a good result?

Easy to sit down now and say you didn't want to do it like that Harry Enfield style.

[Laxie]

It's spreading...

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/05/25/us-france-stabbing-idUSBRE94O09420130525

[Acidmouse]

will we see an increase in Muslims grassing up other radical behaviour from muslims they might know?

[The Camel]

Starting to look like I was totally wrong about them just being random nutters.

The latest stuff I've been reading is much more disturbing.

Why don't extremists just fuck off?

[Woodsey]

will we see an increase in Muslims grassing up other radical behaviour from muslims they might know?

This needs to happen far more than it does now, they should be seen to be doing it., I won't hold my breath though...

[Woodsey]

Why don't extremists just fuck off?

Yes please. it's in the interest of the Muslim community to out these pricks, if they don't it only going to end up one way, and that is with a massive revolt against the Muslim community. It may not happen for 10, 20 or 50 years but it will happen at some point unless they get their house in order.

[RED-DOG]

Why don't extremists just fuck off?

Yes please. it's in the interest of the Muslim community to out these pricks, if they don't it only going to end up one way, and that is with a massive revolt against the Muslim community. It may not happen for 10, 20 or 50 years but it will happen at some point unless they get their house in order.

Because terrorist Muslims make their plans and identities known to all other Muslims?

[Doobs]

will we see an increase in Muslims grassing up other radical behaviour from muslims they might know?

This needs to happen far more than it does now, they should be seen to be doing it., I won't hold my breath though...

I am not sure you'd even notice if they did. 

This has clearly happened in the past and is the reason some people are known to authorities/ some bomb threats are foiled etc

[redarmi]

I have never really understood this argument about how the Muslim community should be self policing.  As far as I can remember that was never an argument put forward about the Northern Irish Catholic community and certainly nobody says the Christian community needs to "out these pricks" about the guys shooting abortion doctors.    I dont see why moderate, peace loving Muslims should be expected to know the first thing about what extremists are up to.  It just seems a bit bizarre to me.

[Acidmouse]

I have never really understood this argument about how the Muslim community should be self policing.  As far as I can remember that was never an argument put forward about the Northern Irish Catholic community and certainly nobody says the Christian community needs to "out these pricks" about the guys shooting abortion doctors.    I dont see why moderate, peace loving Muslims should be expected to know the first thing about what extremists are up to.  It just seems a bit bizarre to me.

these are different times we live in, the dynamics of terrorists and radicals from any group work alot differently from 20 years ago. I also don't think we have a similar situation to where people are abs shit scared of speaking out against the Muslim faith, this imo has lead to some loony tunes not being departed years ago and the real problem festering under the service.

Any other religion seems to be able to take being scrutinised and made fun of, I can't recall the amount of ridicule the Pope gets without no one single act of violence as a result of it..have you?

So to say that the Muslims should not be self policing is ridiculous given the way to reacts to any form of "outside" interfering. It is just not this but I feel the way MPs are scared of speaking out against Asian grooming that's so prevalent and seemingly acceptable in given cultures, unless this country starts not giving a fuck about upsetting people/groups this will continue and more soldiers will be killed.

Also cutting the budget in half really didn't help the intelleigence finding on such matters ...