The Wild Rollercoaster - Just A Kid With A Lifelong Dream

[gouty]

I think it's a terrible fold but maybe I'm the worst.

Just for cliffs

You call him reckless
It went limp limp limp he limped
You raised somebody called
He is a huge dominating stack and goes all in
We have ak




......

For once I agree with plinop about a live tourney hand. Not even I can find a fold with AK as villain over limped button.

Hey. Great thread and good luck at the pokers.

[Ice Shade]

I think it's a terrible fold but maybe I'm the worst.

Just for cliffs

You call him reckless
It went limp limp limp he limped
You raised somebody called
He is a huge dominating stack and goes all in
We have ak




......

For once I agree with plinop about a live tourney hand. Not even I can find a fold with AK as villain over limped button.

Hey. Great thread and good luck at the pokers.

Haha, I try...even if I am sub par xD

[Ice Shade]

The Value Of Money

Poker players are a curious breed, and the environments they frequent tend to lend themselves to extravagance in all forms. Coming from the background I have I've seen thousands in my hands and in the hands of those I know and love one week, then bills being paid by importance alone the next. My parents story of how someone phoned up demanding payment for bills, and the simple threat that "they wouldn't get put into the pot next week" causing negotiations. Oh how I wish those days still existed.

One thing that has always baffled me however is the way in which poker players handle themselves with money, both in hand and in speech. I consider myself fortunate that I hold a large meaning on the value of money and, while I'm not saying other poker players don't, it's not something that seems to come across all that well. When my friends get told of an event for backing purposes they see it in real world terms, where as the people I speak to seem to only view it in terms of bankroll and buyins, devoid of its real life context. When I handed over the buyin for the GPS, for one brief moment I understood just how much £440 was...two weeks work, a months rent, a months food, chances to see the friends on days and nights out...all gone for the sake of a tournament. Sure the potential return is massive. But to understand its worth puts some weight on the situation. For those around me? Some saw it as part of an extensive schedule where the money was merely a figure to see in red or black at the end...some during the tournament already looking how to blow the next £440, having punted off the first load...I can't even begin to understand that. How someone can so quickly write off that kind of cash so easily. Personal circumstances I guess...

While playing this game I've had to become almost desensitised to money as a whole. I've seen tens of thousands won and lost on the turn of a card. If this kind of money was lost in the real world people would be in pieces, but these poker players seem to shrug it off. It might affect them, but they don't show it. I'll always remember walking past Sam trickett's room and peering in as I'm there....here's me, struggling to put together buyins for a tournament these guys would laugh at. Here's me, wondering where my next train fare is coming from, and these guys have enough to pay for me to go to uni for years....here's me celebrating the fact I've finally reached five figures across my career in buyins, and these guys sit down with more than that. Four years work, sitting in front of some guy who if he lost would merely grab his card and get some more.....I don't envy them, merely wish I understood them.

Then you get to the casino side, and that's something I've always found weird, obviously for a few years when Dusk Till Dawn had not caved to financial pressures I was sheltered from seeing such table games, where as now its impossible to avoid them. And the characters are simply immense. Some old guy was playing blackjack a few days ago. And I watched with utter amazement as he'd put down £50 on two boxes....every hand, until the mood took him. Fate, if you'd like.

And all of a sudden he'd slam down £1,000 on a single box, and £50 on the other....he'd lose, the chips would go into the rack, he'd shrug, and reach for the next thousand....this man has in his hands more money than I will likely see for the entire of this year...and that's only because I play this game! A normal person may not even see that much! Yet when he wins big money all it does it sit there, stacking up....it's not thousands being won, its not lifechanging money....it's a scorecard, somedays he's up, somedays he's down....when asked that question he seemed almost accepting of the fact that the house edge would eventually relinquish him of that money...money that, to an innocent bystander, would literally change the outlook of his life for at least the short term, possibly even longer...

I'm not sure what to think anymore really. When I first started on this journey five years ago I used to look in awe at people playing a £75 comp. down the line I've grown to appreciate how much losing the odd hundred here or there hurts. Now? It takes upward of five figures changing hands to even see me flinch. And I'm fairly sure that's not a good thing. Sure context is everything, but long term this game can't be good for your mental state when it comes to money...

Five years ago if you had handed me £10,000 I'd have leapt all over the building crying, thinking of all the amazing things I could do with that. Now? Just a footnote. Waiting for the next £10,000 to come along...

This game is fucking scary sometimes.

[Ice Shade]

This isn't a go at people with those kind of sums at there disposal by the way....more me trying to understand the whole concept of how the poker world seems to have such a lackadaisical grasp on the concept of money...least in my eyes

[Rexas]

This isn't a go at people with those kind of sums at there disposal by the way....more me trying to understand the whole concept of how the poker world seems to have such a lackadaisical grasp on the concept of money...least in my eyes

I'm not entirely sure lackadaisical is the right word, I wouldn't say we/they're unenthusiastic and careless with money. There is a high level of desensitization, for sure, which comes from seeing large amounts of money change hands every day and the necessity of having to distance yourself from the £/$ to enable you to make collected decisions. Especially in cash games, where your money is going to cross the felt a fair amount of the time with varying degrees of hand strength, sitting there and thinking of it as money rather than big blinds certainly negatively affects your decision making.

Live cash players are used to having that sort of money in front of them, and used to having to deal with losing it. I think the manner in which it is taken from you (that the money is still there, someone physically reaches over, counts it, and hands it to someone else) plays a pretty big part in the desensitization process. I also think the poker world has a very solid grasp on money actually, and what each amount of money corresponds to, because we see and hold that amount of money on regular basis in more real terms than the "muggles". I don't believe that makes us completely detached from it either, because there has to be a value to it to, again, help the decision making process. There are very few social groups where it's acceptable, or at least normal, to ask how much money you made or spent the previous day, so perhaps desensitized is the right way to describe it.

[Derbylad]

Granted this was a very interesting read and i'd echo a lot of the sentiments in that the value of money is somewhat lost in the mindsets of players compared to the social norm. I find this more precedent with online poker when my bankroll on a screen is certainly less tangible. I've often given the 'cliffs' to my muggle housemates and see them analyzing my very life decisions when i shrug and say "lost about a bag"...."variance".

The wider picture though is that poker players SHOULD operate good bankroll management and SHOULD therefore be able to shrug off wins and losses without an emotional or mental strain on the game. These are the major pressures that cause most players to seek backing or to drop down stakes. It's only the true 'gamblers' among us that don't accommodate for these circumstances and therefore leave ourselves wide open to the cruelty of variance, myself being among them.

All of this said, a lot of these negatives of the game lead to greater learning curves and deeper appreciation, something i'm sure a lot of the reg's and pro's at these games have all been accustom too. Let's be honest though, would poker really have that much attraction to you if you weren't saturated by a world of high octane scenarios where fortunes are built and lost? Probably not, because poker is always going to be centralized around money for the business economy (through sustainable rake) and the player economy (through a sustainable pool of new entrants). Just be glad these situations don't affect you anymore and use them to your advantage.

[gouty]

A few great posts there. As usual it's 440 in the morning and I am pretty beered up.

Live cash poker is the nuts. It's where the money is especially if you willing to put Fri and Sat nights in (sober). I would say by far the most important factor is having at least one peer or mentor you can implicitly TRUST. I mean like your mum, but a sweaty bloke.

[Ice Shade]

Granted this was a very interesting read and i'd echo a lot of the sentiments in that the value of money is somewhat lost in the mindsets of players compared to the social norm. I find this more precedent with online poker when my bankroll on a screen is certainly less tangible. I've often given the 'cliffs' to my muggle housemates and see them analyzing my very life decisions when i shrug and say "lost about a bag"...."variance".

The wider picture though is that poker players SHOULD operate good bankroll management and SHOULD therefore be able to shrug off wins and losses without an emotional or mental strain on the game. These are the major pressures that cause most players to seek backing or to drop down stakes. It's only the true 'gamblers' among us that don't accommodate for these circumstances and therefore leave ourselves wide open to the cruelty of variance, myself being among them.

All of this said, a lot of these negatives of the game lead to greater learning curves and deeper appreciation, something i'm sure a lot of the reg's and pro's at these games have all been accustom too. Let's be honest though, would poker really have that much attraction to you if you weren't saturated by a world of high octane scenarios where fortunes are built and lost? Probably not, because poker is always going to be centralized around money for the business economy (through sustainable rake) and the player economy (through a sustainable pool of new entrants). Just be glad these situations don't affect you anymore and use them to your advantage.

This, right here, is pretty much the best response I think I could have ever read. True as well, while it baffles me to some extent I do agree with your idea that it is advantageous for me to be as desensitised as I am. Also agree with the "lost about a bag, variance" bit....trying to explain that to my girlfriend and close friends is.....interesting to say the least.

[Ice Shade]

This isn't a go at people with those kind of sums at there disposal by the way....more me trying to understand the whole concept of how the poker world seems to have such a lackadaisical grasp on the concept of money...least in my eyes

I'm not entirely sure lackadaisical is the right word, I wouldn't say we/they're unenthusiastic and careless with money. There is a high level of desensitization, for sure, which comes from seeing large amounts of money change hands every day and the necessity of having to distance yourself from the £/$ to enable you to make collected decisions. Especially in cash games, where your money is going to cross the felt a fair amount of the time with varying degrees of hand strength, sitting there and thinking of it as money rather than big blinds certainly negatively affects your decision making.

Live cash players are used to having that sort of money in front of them, and used to having to deal with losing it. I think the manner in which it is taken from you (that the money is still there, someone physically reaches over, counts it, and hands it to someone else) plays a pretty big part in the desensitization process. I also think the poker world has a very solid grasp on money actually, and what each amount of money corresponds to, because we see and hold that amount of money on regular basis in more real terms than the "muggles". I don't believe that makes us completely detached from it either, because there has to be a value to it to, again, help the decision making process. There are very few social groups where it's acceptable, or at least normal, to ask how much money you made or spent the previous day, so perhaps desensitized is the right way to describe it.

It's this bit that even five years in I struggle with...sure sitting down with £100/£200 doesn't affect me anymore like it used to. But I will admit even at this stage having a few hundred/bags in front of me still makes me take serious stock of the situation. Usually in this instance once the money in front of me is enough for me to pause and think its at that moment I walk away. Not sure if that's the right way to go about it, but yeah.

[Rexas]

This isn't a go at people with those kind of sums at there disposal by the way....more me trying to understand the whole concept of how the poker world seems to have such a lackadaisical grasp on the concept of money...least in my eyes

I'm not entirely sure lackadaisical is the right word, I wouldn't say we/they're unenthusiastic and careless with money. There is a high level of desensitization, for sure, which comes from seeing large amounts of money change hands every day and the necessity of having to distance yourself from the £/$ to enable you to make collected decisions. Especially in cash games, where your money is going to cross the felt a fair amount of the time with varying degrees of hand strength, sitting there and thinking of it as money rather than big blinds certainly negatively affects your decision making.

Live cash players are used to having that sort of money in front of them, and used to having to deal with losing it. I think the manner in which it is taken from you (that the money is still there, someone physically reaches over, counts it, and hands it to someone else) plays a pretty big part in the desensitization process. I also think the poker world has a very solid grasp on money actually, and what each amount of money corresponds to, because we see and hold that amount of money on regular basis in more real terms than the "muggles". I don't believe that makes us completely detached from it either, because there has to be a value to it to, again, help the decision making process. There are very few social groups where it's acceptable, or at least normal, to ask how much money you made or spent the previous day, so perhaps desensitized is the right way to describe it.

It's this bit that even five years in I struggle with...sure sitting down with £100/£200 doesn't affect me anymore like it used to. But I will admit even at this stage having a few hundred/bags in front of me still makes me take serious stock of the situation. Usually in this instance once the money in front of me is enough for me to pause and think its at that moment I walk away. Not sure if that's the right way to go about it, but yeah.

Just wait till you start playing live cash :p

[Derbylad]

This isn't a go at people with those kind of sums at there disposal by the way....more me trying to understand the whole concept of how the poker world seems to have such a lackadaisical grasp on the concept of money...least in my eyes

I'm not entirely sure lackadaisical is the right word, I wouldn't say we/they're unenthusiastic and careless with money. There is a high level of desensitization, for sure, which comes from seeing large amounts of money change hands every day and the necessity of having to distance yourself from the £/$ to enable you to make collected decisions. Especially in cash games, where your money is going to cross the felt a fair amount of the time with varying degrees of hand strength, sitting there and thinking of it as money rather than big blinds certainly negatively affects your decision making.

Live cash players are used to having that sort of money in front of them, and used to having to deal with losing it. I think the manner in which it is taken from you (that the money is still there, someone physically reaches over, counts it, and hands it to someone else) plays a pretty big part in the desensitization process. I also think the poker world has a very solid grasp on money actually, and what each amount of money corresponds to, because we see and hold that amount of money on regular basis in more real terms than the "muggles". I don't believe that makes us completely detached from it either, because there has to be a value to it to, again, help the decision making process. There are very few social groups where it's acceptable, or at least normal, to ask how much money you made or spent the previous day, so perhaps desensitized is the right way to describe it.

It's this bit that even five years in I struggle with...sure sitting down with £100/£200 doesn't affect me anymore like it used to. But I will admit even at this stage having a few hundred/bags in front of me still makes me take serious stock of the situation. Usually in this instance once the money in front of me is enough for me to pause and think its at that moment I walk away. Not sure if that's the right way to go about it, but yeah.

Just wait till you start playing live PLO :p

FYP

[Rexas]

This isn't a go at people with those kind of sums at there disposal by the way....more me trying to understand the whole concept of how the poker world seems to have such a lackadaisical grasp on the concept of money...least in my eyes

I'm not entirely sure lackadaisical is the right word, I wouldn't say we/they're unenthusiastic and careless with money. There is a high level of desensitization, for sure, which comes from seeing large amounts of money change hands every day and the necessity of having to distance yourself from the £/$ to enable you to make collected decisions. Especially in cash games, where your money is going to cross the felt a fair amount of the time with varying degrees of hand strength, sitting there and thinking of it as money rather than big blinds certainly negatively affects your decision making.

Live cash players are used to having that sort of money in front of them, and used to having to deal with losing it. I think the manner in which it is taken from you (that the money is still there, someone physically reaches over, counts it, and hands it to someone else) plays a pretty big part in the desensitization process. I also think the poker world has a very solid grasp on money actually, and what each amount of money corresponds to, because we see and hold that amount of money on regular basis in more real terms than the "muggles". I don't believe that makes us completely detached from it either, because there has to be a value to it to, again, help the decision making process. There are very few social groups where it's acceptable, or at least normal, to ask how much money you made or spent the previous day, so perhaps desensitized is the right way to describe it.

It's this bit that even five years in I struggle with...sure sitting down with £100/£200 doesn't affect me anymore like it used to. But I will admit even at this stage having a few hundred/bags in front of me still makes me take serious stock of the situation. Usually in this instance once the money in front of me is enough for me to pause and think its at that moment I walk away. Not sure if that's the right way to go about it, but yeah.

Just wait till you start playing live PLO :p

FYP

This, right here, is pretty much the best FYP I think I could have ever read.

[blueace]

I was suprised at the lack of response to your play on the first hand. Hope it doesnt sound too harsh, of course its always easy after the event.......

Blinds: 150/300/25
Starting Stack: 38,000
UTG+2 with   , raise to 650
CO calls, BTN 3bet to 1700
Call call, three way flop  
Check check, BTN bets 2100
Call, fold, heads up turn  
Check, BTN bets 2100, call
River  
Check, BTN bets 4500, I raise to 9200, BTN ships 28,000, I fold

Logic behind this was that his reaction down every street was one of increasing worry, Logic behind check riasing river? Folding? or logic behind passive play until the river raise?

pre he had a tendency to raise really small with monsters (crying call material) so his three bet signalled a strong hand, I went with good implied odds as I didn't believe him capable of folding overpairs, float the flop seems fine to me as I have immediate outs, when they complete and he fires a second time all I put him on are AQ+/10's+, so I'm content to bomb the river expecting to get paid provided I think I'm still ahead. Worst river in the world and more-so when he snap double checked his cards, he looked excited. My raise is purely to find out where I am.
Contradiction? You check raise him on 'worst river in the world' - to find out where you are? With a player giving me action on every street on a board of that texture,  I would want to show strength on the river by betting out as this willl also serve to see 'where I am'. However your passive play up til then meant you were always fighting a losing battle on the river. Absolutely would never check/raise as you are going to be left in a spot as you were, or most of the time only getting called by the better hand.

I could probably make it more but I'm worried of over committing on a paired board. His ship was almost instant, at which point what am I really beating? Correct me if im wrong but this shows a lack of having thought through this move... If im making a check raise on the river (Which but for your passive play prior is a very strong move), then Ive got to think ahead to his likely response... what if he shoves?

I don't think he 3's pre with KQ, that's not his style. So all I can reasonably have him on is AQ/AA/QQ/JJ. He could have KK, I'm not too sure on that one. But I just think calling off is terrible, not sure though.

IMO You played the hand too passively, absolutely should have raised his turn bet... this is when you need to find out how strong he is. Also perhaps you didnt think through how your passive play would influence his thoughts on the hand and his ability to get you to fold...

-----

Blinds: 250/500/50
Starting Stack: 22,500
Four limpers (UTG, CO, BTN, SB) I'm BB with    , raise to 2400
UTG flats, CO folds, BTN shoves for 91,000, SB folds, I fold

Probably fairly standard but I want clarification. One important thing to note is that the button has been fairly reckless all tournament, but never like this, his standard play would have probably been a 7k 3bet, I just thought that it could be an insane play with the top of his range trying to look spewy or that it was the standard over shove. Either way I considered myself good enough not to risk everything in this spot.

Always a shove here, there are numerous spots where AK should be folded pre, this isnt one of them. You can't win tournaments by waiting for the very best spots, as they may never come....

-----

[Ice Shade]

I was suprised at the lack of response to your play on the first hand. Hope it doesnt sound too harsh, of course its always easy after the event.......

Blinds: 150/300/25
Starting Stack: 38,000
UTG+2 with   , raise to 650
CO calls, BTN 3bet to 1700
Call call, three way flop  
Check check, BTN bets 2100
Call, fold, heads up turn  
Check, BTN bets 2100, call
River  
Check, BTN bets 4500, I raise to 9200, BTN ships 28,000, I fold

Logic behind this was that his reaction down every street was one of increasing worry, Logic behind check riasing river? Folding? or logic behind passive play until the river raise?

pre he had a tendency to raise really small with monsters (crying call material) so his three bet signalled a strong hand, I went with good implied odds as I didn't believe him capable of folding overpairs, float the flop seems fine to me as I have immediate outs, when they complete and he fires a second time all I put him on are AQ+/10's+, so I'm content to bomb the river expecting to get paid provided I think I'm still ahead. Worst river in the world and more-so when he snap double checked his cards, he looked excited. My raise is purely to find out where I am.
Contradiction? You check raise him on 'worst river in the world' - to find out where you are? With a player giving me action on every street on a board of that texture,  I would want to show strength on the river by betting out as this willl also serve to see 'where I am'. However your passive play up til then meant you were always fighting a losing battle on the river. Absolutely would never check/raise as you are going to be left in a spot as you were, or most of the time only getting called by the better hand.

I could probably make it more but I'm worried of over committing on a paired board. His ship was almost instant, at which point what am I really beating? Correct me if im wrong but this shows a lack of having thought through this move... If im making a check raise on the river (Which but for your passive play prior is a very strong move), then Ive got to think ahead to his likely response... what if he shoves?

I don't think he 3's pre with KQ, that's not his style. So all I can reasonably have him on is AQ/AA/QQ/JJ. He could have KK, I'm not too sure on that one. But I just think calling off is terrible, not sure though.

IMO You played the hand too passively, absolutely should have raised his turn bet... this is when you need to find out how strong he is. Also perhaps you didnt think through how your passive play would influence his thoughts on the hand and his ability to get you to fold...

-----

Blinds: 250/500/50
Starting Stack: 22,500
Four limpers (UTG, CO, BTN, SB) I'm BB with    , raise to 2400
UTG flats, CO folds, BTN shoves for 91,000, SB folds, I fold

Probably fairly standard but I want clarification. One important thing to note is that the button has been fairly reckless all tournament, but never like this, his standard play would have probably been a 7k 3bet, I just thought that it could be an insane play with the top of his range trying to look spewy or that it was the standard over shove. Either way I considered myself good enough not to risk everything in this spot.

Always a shove here, there are numerous spots where AK should be folded pre, this isnt one of them. You can't win tournaments by waiting for the very best spots, as they may never come....

-----

never harsh, always looking to learn and you are right this hand got glossed over somewhat. I'll respond in order of boldness (i like that phrase, keeping that)

1. Logic was the check raise yes
2. Agree with this, leading out saves alot more than this play...if i lead for about 3k i can get away to any resistance
3. Yeah, cant really defend this. I think my logic at the time was "i dont think he's got the shove in him" which in hindsight is completely stupid...if he had the very hand i thought he did OF COURSE HE HAS THAT MOVE!
4. I like the turn raise, probs should have thought about that. And agreed i didnt think that...

Sigh...really do need to get better at these chess style plays, gotta think ahead :\

[Ice Shade]

This isn't a go at people with those kind of sums at there disposal by the way....more me trying to understand the whole concept of how the poker world seems to have such a lackadaisical grasp on the concept of money...least in my eyes

I'm not entirely sure lackadaisical is the right word, I wouldn't say we/they're unenthusiastic and careless with money. There is a high level of desensitization, for sure, which comes from seeing large amounts of money change hands every day and the necessity of having to distance yourself from the £/$ to enable you to make collected decisions. Especially in cash games, where your money is going to cross the felt a fair amount of the time with varying degrees of hand strength, sitting there and thinking of it as money rather than big blinds certainly negatively affects your decision making.

Live cash players are used to having that sort of money in front of them, and used to having to deal with losing it. I think the manner in which it is taken from you (that the money is still there, someone physically reaches over, counts it, and hands it to someone else) plays a pretty big part in the desensitization process. I also think the poker world has a very solid grasp on money actually, and what each amount of money corresponds to, because we see and hold that amount of money on regular basis in more real terms than the "muggles". I don't believe that makes us completely detached from it either, because there has to be a value to it to, again, help the decision making process. There are very few social groups where it's acceptable, or at least normal, to ask how much money you made or spent the previous day, so perhaps desensitized is the right way to describe it.

It's this bit that even five years in I struggle with...sure sitting down with £100/£200 doesn't affect me anymore like it used to. But I will admit even at this stage having a few hundred/bags in front of me still makes me take serious stock of the situation. Usually in this instance once the money in front of me is enough for me to pause and think its at that moment I walk away. Not sure if that's the right way to go about it, but yeah.

Just wait till you start playing live PLO :p

FYP

This, right here, is pretty much the best FYP I think I could have ever read.

If i take up live cash any time soon...
...also yeah, best FYP ever...i wont be touching PLO for AGES!