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Author Topic: SCOOP final table spot vs British reg  (Read 2725 times)
bergeroo
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« on: June 19, 2014, 04:15:18 PM »

Five handed at a SCOOP final table $215 buy in. The villain in this hand is a British midstakes reg. Someome who I had anticipated coming into the final would be very ICM aware and play good. I respect his game. Nevertheless this is a huge final for him as it is for me. I guess he probably knows me in some way, but we haven't played a tonne of hands together or have a huge history.

Payouts
5th: $47,370.50
4th: $62,974.90
3rd: $91,954.50
2nd: $129,850.90
1st: $174,359.20

I came into the final second in chips but have been handcuffed by the chipleader on my left and as a consequence played pretty tight.

I am utg five handed and villain is on the button. I have him covered by 2bbs. We both currently have just over 50bbs and are sitting in 3rd and 4th. There is one shorty with 15bbs.

PokerStars Hand #116089812324: Tournament #894306881,

$200+$15 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XLIII

(100000/200000) - 2014/05/12 15:14:51 ET
Table '894306881 468' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: kavlleas08 (15351075 in chips)
Seat 2: villain (10484318 in chips)
Seat 5: cronevelt (15886831 in chips)
Seat 7: final rival (3167744 in chips)
Seat 9: bergeroo (10840032 in chips)
kavlleas08: posts the ante 25000
villain: posts the ante 25000
cronevelt: posts the ante 25000
final rival: posts the ante 25000
bergeroo: posts the ante 25000
cronevelt: posts small blind 100000
final rival: posts big blind 200000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to bergeroo [ ]
bergeroo: raises 244000 to 444000
kavlleas08: folds
villain: raises 691000 to 1135000
cronevelt: folds
final rival: folds
bergeroo: calls 691000
*** FLOP *** [ two hearts ]
bergeroo: checks
villain: bets 1051000
bergeroo: calls 1051000
*** TURN *** [ two hearts ] [Two Clubs]
bergeroo: checks
villain: checks
*** RIVER *** [ two hearts Two Clubs] []
Hero?

On the river there is 4.8m in the pot with effective stacks of 8.2m
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pleno1
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« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2014, 04:42:37 PM »

limp pre? Tongue

anway, would bet river and feel very happy about it i imagine he continues ott with ak and has a bunch of kxs hands that 3bet pre flpp and can cape you with qq,jj kinda hands occasionally.

i guess the only question is sizing, i want to go for his kx to call us rather than qq/jj as they block the combos he wants us to bluff from so id go big. he wont fold kx
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wazz
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« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2014, 06:41:03 PM »

Don't think we have much of a bluffing range and as such think the range of hands he's betting when checked to is wider than that he's calling with. Really wouldn't feel comfortable bet-calling here either.
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muckthenuts
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« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2014, 07:54:19 PM »

Yeah our bet/calling range has got to be very narrow right, like 99 only? Probs best to avoid giving him that option.
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willrobrobu
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« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2014, 09:21:55 PM »

yeh i'd check/call most bets
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LeeMcshane
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« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2014, 10:57:52 AM »

Definate check calling or making an thin value bet so slightly worse hands call dependent on his river plays
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youthnkzR
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« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2014, 11:00:34 AM »

Really clear bet / fold in my eyes.

Think we can totally factor out him realising that we need exactly and only 99 to bet / call river due to knowing villain is a MS reg and therefore probably not confirmed sicko. Even if he does realise this in those seconds, the difference between realising and actually doing on a FT of this scale is enormous - especially with the short stack.

When we bet river we basically have either: KQx / KJx / QJx / J10x / 99x  

I find it hard to believe that a MS reg is going to jam a complete airball over a bet with 0 blockers. When he does have blockers (Kx / 9x) - hes so much more likely to call than jam as this means theres less combos we can have for value and more bricked straight draws...etc. Hes also gonna have QQ / JJ / Worse Kx which take this line a lot, and a good % of time these hands wont bet the river for value.

Had a much longer post typed out but deleted it by accident. CLIFFS: Bet / fold is the way. Bet / call is really bad. Checking isn't an option if we want to win unless we have some specific reads.

As for sizing would go 3.1m - seems a nice size Smiley
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willrobrobu
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« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2014, 12:02:37 PM »

youthink is right he bluffs v rarely vs yr bet on river. so bet/f is fine. im still check/calling here though as i think we just get too many folds to a river bet. he is much more likely to bluff when checked to than call light IMO.

depends a bit on how u perceive each other though

if you think he is being so cautious as to never be betting river if you check to him with QQ/JJ/TT/KJ/KT for value or making bluffs for a rel small % of his stack then obviously check/call is a bad move.
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WotRTheChances
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« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2014, 01:17:52 PM »

I'd probs bet 55% pot or something on river and fold to raise.

What do people think about c/r flop? Not as standard in this spot, but it looks pretty FOS with JQ/TJ/QT type stuff as our perceived value range for c/r this flop is probably like 22/99/AA, so this could induce.
I know ICM wise it's awful to bust in this spot, but maybe that makes this idea better? because it makes our perceived value range even narrower and thus the amount we are perceived to be FOS here becomes huge.
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youthnkzR
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« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2014, 02:32:53 PM »

I'd probs bet 55% pot or something on river and fold to raise.

What do people think about c/r flop? Not as standard in this spot, but it looks pretty FOS with JQ/TJ/QT type stuff as our perceived value range for c/r this flop is probably like 22/99/AA, so this could induce.
I know ICM wise it's awful to bust in this spot, but maybe that makes this idea better? because it makes our perceived value range even narrower and thus the amount we are perceived to be FOS here becomes huge.

Not a huge fan of playing a bloated pot out of position with one pair on a FT of this scale, especially after in theory taking a weaker range to the flop after being 3bet pre and peeling. Much prefer a line like: lead flop / check/call turn / lead river because this way we dictate sizing but also don't allow his worse value hands a chance to check behind river an potentially hero us with his A highs..Etc if it runs out brick brick. On phone ATM so this probably a bad explanation of what I mean.
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WotRTheChances
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« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2014, 03:14:55 PM »

I'd probs bet 55% pot or something on river and fold to raise.

What do people think about c/r flop? Not as standard in this spot, but it looks pretty FOS with JQ/TJ/QT type stuff as our perceived value range for c/r this flop is probably like 22/99/AA, so this could induce.
I know ICM wise it's awful to bust in this spot, but maybe that makes this idea better? because it makes our perceived value range even narrower and thus the amount we are perceived to be FOS here becomes huge.

Not a huge fan of playing a bloated pot out of position with one pair on a FT of this scale, especially after in theory taking a weaker range to the flop after being 3bet pre and peeling. Much prefer a line like: lead flop / check/call turn / lead river because this way we dictate sizing but also don't allow his worse value hands a chance to check behind river an potentially hero us with his A highs..Etc if it runs out brick brick. On phone ATM so this probably a bad explanation of what I mean.

I'm aware of those things and that's why i'd basically always take the c/c route, but just from villains perspective, what range are you assigning us if we take the c/r flop line? I'd assume villain in this hand isn't only 3-betting super-premiums in this spot, so what do you think thought processes would be from him if were to get c/raised on this flop with hands that aren't AK/AA/KK/99?

My only thought of this is because I remember going through a HH with an online sicko playing an FT (albeit a relatively small one) where he peels A7s to a 3b and c/r gets in on like A83 or something, reasoning that he thought villain would never expect him to take this line with Ax and would spazz off loads. Obviously this is a completely different spot in terms of getting it in, but the principle is similar.
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youthnkzR
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« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2014, 03:32:34 PM »

I know your aware, and although the line u suggest is pretty cool (I like it for most games), I just think all those factors when coupled with it being a very rare opportunity being this specific FT means we should stick to a lower variance style. Personally if I was villain I wouldn't be folding anything I bet the flop for value with to just one bet however when it comes to the later streets I would 100% re-evaluate, it just seems such a strange board for bergeroo to c/r and take off down further streets on and be totally FOS. e.g. I wouldn't be loving life with Kx otf, however I would like to think I am competent enough to not lose 3 streets of bets post flop every time when he takes this line. I also think your line depends a lot on sizings to how much u get. Also the shortstack is the BB which may / may not make a difference to his 3betting range.
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WotRTheChances
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« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2014, 04:35:25 PM »

fwiw when i said 'I'm aware of those things' that wasn't meant to be like a snappy arrogant thing, just like a 'yeah, but how about this...'.
Generally taking the low-variance standard line will be best... I mean i'm probs more likely to fold pre than get funky ool post lol. I do like to think of alternative approaches to hands and taking unstandard lines, just to get an idea of the pros/cons
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bergeroo
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« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2014, 10:07:49 PM »

I made the decision to check call the flop rather than leading or check raising because yeah I did prefer to keep the pot smaller oop at this stage and situation in the tournament.

For those saying check call the river. Does the size of a river bet affect your decision. Are you still calling an almost full pot bet?

For those saying bet the river, is it a bet/fold, or would you consider bet/calling?

In the actual hand I bet 2.1m on the river which I believe is too small. I prefer betting about 3m. My opponent then shoved for 8.2m......................

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lucky_scrote
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« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2014, 10:21:12 AM »

I honestly think bet folding is the best line. Made a long post yesterday but it seemed crazy to just check fold river but I honestly can't see him taking off on the river. Almost nobody does this with AQ and bluffs these days and is more likely to go check bomb bomb rather than bet check bomb. It's hard to say what part of his range he's betting and checking the flop with, but it's entirely reasonable for him to check the turn with his good hands because it's tough for him to get 3 streets with AK AA 99 here. If he has AK then he already has a K blocker and you kinda have to specifically have KQ for him to have any chance of getting 3 streets.
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