9HighLikeABoss

[cambridgealex]

Everything is not how it seems there Mr T.

Some German Hiroller (Martin Finger iirc) turned up and offered to buy a huge majority of Jacks action heads up. I believe Jack was playing for 30k of his own money in that HU match, and Martin (and friends?) had the rest, so he effectively had done a deal, just not with the Italian!

[tikay]

Everything is not how it seems there Mr T.

Some German Hiroller (Martin Finger iirc) turned up and offered to buy a huge majority of Jacks action heads up. I believe Jack was playing for 30k of his own money in that HU match, and Martin (and friends?) had the rest, so he effectively had done a deal, just not with the Italian!

I am aware of that (though not the exact numbers), yes, but it makes no difference.

SOMEONE on Team Salter, be it him or his backers/friends, refused to pay an extra €1,000, & that decision cost them a 6 figure number. They can't have been too chuffed afterwards, whereas Mr Italy must have been doing handstands. It never cost Jack, no, but it cost someone.

At the time, Jack had a chip lead, iirc, of about 11/10, or 11/9, or similar. What price he won it from there, especially against a seasoned HU player? 4/5 & Evens at best? Can't be much different to that, it's almost a pickem.

What price were they laying when they turned down the extra €1,000? 1/200 or somesuch? Betcha they don't ever do that again.

I don't have ANY problem with Jack, not at all, but logically, that made no sense. 

Have to say, I'm not at all sure I like this thing where Italy is asking for a deal, & Jack says "I have to go ask my mates".

Italy says "give me €X"

Jack toddles off, asks, returns.

"My mates said no".

"Give me €Y then"

"I'll go ask my mates".

Can't quite put my finger on it, but that just feels wrong somehow.

If I get HU with you for a milly, I'm dealing with you, nobody else, & if you say you have to go ask someone, I'll tell you to forget it.

Anyway, good luck to them both, but I'm buggered if that makes any sense to me. Adrenelin affects our judgement, I think.

PS - Did you enjoy watching TV Star Stato? I thought he was just great.

[arbboy]

incredible story.  Agree with you TK i would be more worried about getting to the bar than worrying about a grand esp as you might end up having to do another 2 or 3 hours work heads up to finish it off if you don't deal.  hourly rate of 300 euros an hour plus the variance doesn't seem worth it to me when you got half a mill gtd.  
Also hate heads up deals where the other guy has to ask his mates.  Shouldn't be allowed.  If you are respected enough to play the game for £1m on your own then you should be suitably qualified to make a deal on your own.

[cambridgealex]

incredible story.  Agree with you TK i would be more worried about getting to the bar than worrying about a grand esp as you might end up having to do another 2 or 3 hours work heads up to finish it off if you don't deal.  hourly rate of 300 euros an hour plus the variance doesn't seem worth it to me when you got half a mill gtd. 
Also hate heads up deals where the other guy has to ask his mates.  Shouldn't be allowed.  If you are respected enough to play the game for £1m on your own then you should be suitably qualified to make a deal on your own.

This seems like similar to "cashing out" a big accumulator on betfair, I followed that thread and you had the exact opposite view there.

By dealing Jack is giving up a huge chunk of EV. He perceives that he is the best player and has a significant edge. Giving the guy an even chop is sacrificing a HUGE amount of EV. Literally tens of thousands of euros. Why would he do that?

He's gone very deep in his accumulator, is it time to cash out and deal?

[cambridgealex]

Yes he's got half a mill gtd. But he's not going to retire on that. He'll be back on the circuit playing tournaments again in a few days, playing 500s, 1ks, 2ks 5ks etc. Giving up tens of thousands of euros in EV will seem pretty silly then.

[arbboy]

incredible story.  Agree with you TK i would be more worried about getting to the bar than worrying about a grand esp as you might end up having to do another 2 or 3 hours work heads up to finish it off if you don't deal.  hourly rate of 300 euros an hour plus the variance doesn't seem worth it to me when you got half a mill gtd.  
Also hate heads up deals where the other guy has to ask his mates.  Shouldn't be allowed.  If you are respected enough to play the game for £1m on your own then you should be suitably qualified to make a deal on your own.

This seems like similar to "cashing out" a big accumulator on betfair, I followed that thread and you had the exact opposite view there.

By dealing Jack is giving up a huge chunk of EV. He perceives that he is the best player and has a significant edge. Giving the guy an even chop is sacrificing a HUGE amount of EV. Literally tens of thousands of euros. Why would he do that?

He's gone very deep in his accumulator, is it time to cash out and deal?

Sure i get all that but i was assuming that tikay was right in the fact that he was a flip or close to a flip to win it so he wasn't giving up huge ev.  If he was a 65/35 fav heads up then it's different.  I just went off Tikay's stats.  Sorry if i didn't realise the full story.  To be willing to offer £499k as a deal then decline 500k seems idiotic though if those facts are correct.  Why would u offer £499k then refuse £500k?  Potentially doing 2 or 3 hours work to earn an extra £1k seems pointless if you are happy dealing at £499k and taking the swings.  Again i might have got these stats wrong if so apologies.

Changing subjects to deal making Alex.  As a good deal maker yourself what is your view on ur heads up opponent in any given mtt being able to discuss with his stakers/friends etc which might give you less of an edge in any dealings?

[cambridgealex]

The heads up match lasted 9 hours by the way! It was quite an incredible match, with Jack really dominating and having him allin 4/5 times to win but could never finish him. Then it all turned as you saw. The TV show doesn't do it justice at all but obviously it can't.

I don't believe there was ever an argument over 1k, unless I missed something. I remember a 949/950 thing but that wasn't the reason the deal was turned down. Martin turned up taking all the action so that's why the deal was called off.

Anyway about the deals. I thought I had started a thread after the event posing this very question but I can't find it. It was probably just discussed within the EPT Grand Final Rail thread.

I'm still not sure where I stand. I definitely thought it unfair on the Italian that Jack could do a deal with Martin Finger and take all the pressure off him and change the game completely, playing for just 30k, whereas the Italian was playing on for 300 or 400k. It's impossible to ban or police though, so things like this will only get more common I'm afraid.

[cambridgealex]

I think a backer needs to trust his player to make a smart deal. Though what is smart for the horse is very often different from what is smart for the player. For example, a horse in £100k makeup gets to heads up with£200k for first, and £100k for 2nd. This horse will accept almost any deal heads up, whereas the backer would be reluctant to make a bad deal.

It's tricky because the backer has put all the money in, and is £100k out of pocket in the deal, so should he have an input in the deal? It's hard to say.

I've had two completely opposite approaches from my current backer Keith, and ex backer Keys.

I'll never forget being in that room in DTD negotiating a deal 4 handed in the Monte Carlo in 2011, with a £2/3k net worth and ready to snap off a £30k deal when Keys said no deal on my behalf.

I walked out of there feeling sick to my stomach at the thought of coming 4th now. I don't think I could have forgiven him had it turned out differently.

Keith just says "whatever, up to you"...

[Marky147]

I think a backer needs to trust his player to make a smart deal. Though what is smart for the horse is very often different from what is smart for the player. For example, a horse in £100k makeup gets to heads up with£200k for first, and £100k for 2nd. This horse will accept almost any deal heads up, whereas the backer would be reluctant to make a bad deal.

It's tricky because the backer has put all the money in, and is £100k out of pocket in the deal, so should he have an input in the deal? It's hard to say.

I've had two completely opposite approaches from my current backer Keith, and ex backer Keys.

I'll never forget being in that room in DTD negotiating a deal 4 handed in the Monte Carlo in 2011, with a £2/3k net worth and ready to snap off a £30k deal when Keys said no deal on my behalf.

I walked out of there feeling sick to my stomach at the thought of coming 4th now. I don't think I could have forgiven him had it turned out differently.

Keith just says "whatever, up to you"...

Was that a case of Keys knowing you were still pretty new to playing for lumpy sums, and could have done you/him out of money. Whereas Keith knows that you're not going to do that now, so can just let you crack on?

[pleno1]

if backers have a problem they can often do a deal for their horse too.

i tried to deal once on some final table, a friend who was richer than me messaged me and offered me the deal i was trying to get from the guy. he was playing visibly weak, i played as best as possible for my friend, ended up winning and sending him the money.

if i have a horse on a $11r final table where $6k is a big amount for them and they want to take a deal to minimise the variance, if it was a bad deal, i'd way rather give them something mutually beneficial if i could financially clear it.

in that spot i think if keys offered you a reasonable deal it would be fair all round.

[shipitgood]

They said Jack was in to the tourney through a $300 Sat.

Not to sure what the set up was/ whether he was backed or German guy just offered him an amount for a % of his winnings once HU.

Whatever way you chop it up, had he taken the deal he would have 1 mil £/ Euros, sure he's prob giving away a % of this, but when that was all done, he was still probs walking away with atleast 50% of that in his own pocket plenty to play on his own £ in future tourneys and still be pretty much set up for life, if he was prudent with his money.

That's crazy the HU lasted 9 hours, is understandable if he thinks he has an edge he's gonna play on, but by the same token it seems the deal fell through for £1000- £10,000, which is totally negligible to the amounts involved.

It would have seemed good business sense for all involved to have taken the deal, both players, and Jack's backers.

HU it would make sense that no one else should get involved in any deal negotiation.

[pleno1]

i think the fact he DID deal and played hu for 9 hours speaks a lot!

[shipitgood]

lol so MF guarantees Jack just under 1 Mill, so MF gains 200k or loses 200k.

That's a whole lot of Trust from Jack. Cut out the middleman IMO.

[shipitgood]

Going to the Celtic  Intermilan game tonight.

Could actually get a result, things seem to be clicking into place for Celtic at the moment.

Mon the hoops

[teddybloat]

Just saw the qqq thread next door.

Congrats man