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Author Topic: Paris horror attack  (Read 51978 times)
The Camel
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« Reply #105 on: January 08, 2015, 07:56:56 PM »

Reading Richard Dawkins Twitter feed is remarkably similar to what Pleno said in this thread.
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The Camel
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« Reply #106 on: January 08, 2015, 08:16:41 PM »

And what Woodsey said for that matter.
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The Camel
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« Reply #107 on: January 08, 2015, 08:23:57 PM »

I am incredibly conflicted on all this.

I passionately believe in free speech, but I also find offending people for no reason pointless and rude.

I find the whole idea of religion ridiculous, but I understand some people believe and respect their right to believe.

I think the vast majority of Muslims are peace loving, but if you read certain parts of the Koran it is undeniably inflamatory and encourages followers to be voilent and commit murder.

Confusing to know what to think.

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Congratulations to the 2012 League Champion - Stapleton Atheists

"Keith The Camel, a true champion!" - Brent Horner 30th December 2012

"I dont think you're a wanker Keith" David Nicholson 4th March 2013
Kmac84
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« Reply #108 on: January 08, 2015, 08:37:38 PM »

I read this elsewhere and it sort of echos my thoughts more.  I think it has a place in here - granted I am a few pages behind so not sure what has been said in the last 22 hrs or so. 

___________________________

It seems to be the job of politicians and journalists to deliberately obscure events and present them entirely without historical context. As supporters of Irish republicanism will know only too well, if the actions of an 'embittered minority' can be presented to the general public as inexplicable, bewildering and 'insane', the activities of the state itself will never be challenged or questioned. The state and those who support it, therefore, never have to answer for their manipulation of the events that caused the social alienation, racial exclusion and embitterment which led to "terrorism".
Yesterday's attack in Paris was a heinous crime, but with all of the righteous indignation currently being expressed by journalists and politicians after the murders of the Charle Hebdo staff, it's important to put the divisions that exist in France in some kind of historical perspective. France has a history of conflict in its Arab and African colonies, most notably Algeria which fought an eight year war of liberation.
Traditionally there has been a crossover between the far-right and the French security forces that goes back to the Vichy regime which collaborated with the Nazi occupation in WW2.
On 17th October 1961, at least 300 Algerians were massacred on the streets of Paris by the police. This is considered as a mere footnote of history and has long been ignored by successive French governments, of the right and the left. The Police Chief of Paris at the time was Maurice Papon, a Nazi collaborator who went on to mastermind the use of death squads in Algeria in the 1950's.
Papon was eventually tried for his Nazi collaborationist crimes during WW2, but no police officer was ever convicted for the massacre of the Algerians in Paris that night in October 1961.
There is no justification for the attack on Charlie Hebdo, but there is a political and historical context for the alienation of French Algerians and Moslems. That alienation has been further nourished by French military adventurism in north Africa and Arab nations such as Libya, Iraq and Syria
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Kmac84
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« Reply #109 on: January 08, 2015, 08:40:26 PM »


Heard an interview with three French people who were joining the many in a square in Paris to peacefully protest and show solidarity. They all spoke excellent English and very eloquently said why they were there and how the people of France had to come together against this sort of atrocity against innocent people and an attack on democracy. Said that they hope normal Muslims aren't targeted by right-wing thugs, etc.

Was very moving. 

Also heard a Muslim cleric saying that this slaughter should be condemned as an attack on freedom and democracy. He was understandably upset and angry. That's the thing, this cleric is a Muslim, but those terrorists are also Muslims. The same way the IRA are Catholics, etc. Religion makes people, and is used as an excuse by people, to carry out awful, inhumane acts.

Meh, it seems that Brits are the best at steretyping other religions and groupings. 

The reference that the IRA were some sort of avenging Catholic army is wrong on so many levels.  A myth that was perpetuated by the British state who were first responsible for the divide and conquer tactics. 

We see much of the same today only its along different religions and class grounds. 

Todays events looked to be very well planned and done with precision, I don't want to start with conspiracy theories until we know more about it but this wasn't done by a couple of thugs in my mind. 



Try to understand the point of my post before claiming that I think the IRA were avenging Catholics ffs.

Oh I understood it.
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mulhuzz
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« Reply #110 on: January 08, 2015, 08:46:49 PM »

I am incredibly conflicted on all this.

I passionately believe in free speech, but I also find offending people for no reason pointless and rude.

I find the whole idea of religion ridiculous, but I understand some people believe and respect their right to believe.

I think the vast majority of Muslims are peace loving, but if you read certain parts of the Koran it is undeniably inflamatory and encourages followers to be voilent and commit murder.

Confusing to know what to think.



http://douthat.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/01/07/the-blasphemy-we-need/ offers a good perspective there.
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Kmac84
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« Reply #111 on: January 08, 2015, 08:49:23 PM »

The Koran is different from the Bible though (well, the New Testament anyway - the OT does have some mad shit in it), in that Mohammed wasn't some peace-loving hippy like Jesus - he was a warrior who would suggest that, yes, his guys should kill the enemy because he was fighting wars. This obviously is going to cause problems in the modern day when religious people take ancient writings literally - at least Jesus generally just told people to chill the fuck out and be excellent to each other (and yet many Christians still seem to fuck this up)

I was a bigger fan of the baby jesus.   The one that stuck hiself up a mountain without food was a bit weird.
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The Camel
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« Reply #112 on: January 08, 2015, 09:06:08 PM »

I am incredibly conflicted on all this.

I passionately believe in free speech, but I also find offending people for no reason pointless and rude.

I find the whole idea of religion ridiculous, but I understand some people believe and respect their right to believe.

I think the vast majority of Muslims are peace loving, but if you read certain parts of the Koran it is undeniably inflamatory and encourages followers to be voilent and commit murder.

Confusing to know what to think.



http://douthat.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/01/07/the-blasphemy-we-need/ offers a good perspective there.

Interesting article. Thanks for the link.

It's difficult to look at the Charlie Hebdo cartoons in a vacuum now.

But attempting to, I haven't smiled at a single one. The ones I've seen are gratuitously offensive and unlikely to encourage debate.

Their sole purpose seems to be to offend. If I was a Muslim, I would certainly be offended.

I believe they have the right to offend, but why do it? It just makes people upset and angry. And it certainly isn't going to challenge anyone's beliefs.

More likely to strengthen them if anything.
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Congratulations to the 2012 League Champion - Stapleton Atheists

"Keith The Camel, a true champion!" - Brent Horner 30th December 2012

"I dont think you're a wanker Keith" David Nicholson 4th March 2013
DungBeetle
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« Reply #113 on: January 08, 2015, 09:17:24 PM »


Heard an interview with three French people who were joining the many in a square in Paris to peacefully protest and show solidarity. They all spoke excellent English and very eloquently said why they were there and how the people of France had to come together against this sort of atrocity against innocent people and an attack on democracy. Said that they hope normal Muslims aren't targeted by right-wing thugs, etc.

Was very moving. 

Also heard a Muslim cleric saying that this slaughter should be condemned as an attack on freedom and democracy. He was understandably upset and angry. That's the thing, this cleric is a Muslim, but those terrorists are also Muslims. The same way the IRA are Catholics, etc. Religion makes people, and is used as an excuse by people, to carry out awful, inhumane acts.

Meh, it seems that Brits are the best at steretyping other religions and groupings. 

The reference that the IRA were some sort of avenging Catholic army is wrong on so many levels.  A myth that was perpetuated by the British state who were first responsible for the divide and conquer tactics. 

We see much of the same today only its along different religions and class grounds. 

Todays events looked to be very well planned and done with precision, I don't want to start with conspiracy theories until we know more about it but this wasn't done by a couple of thugs in my mind. 



Try to understand the point of my post before claiming that I think the IRA were avenging Catholics ffs.

Oh I understood it.

You clearly haven't.  Read it again. Then paraphrase when you think you have managed to grasp it.
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DungBeetle
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« Reply #114 on: January 08, 2015, 10:49:33 PM »

I am incredibly conflicted on all this.

I passionately believe in free speech, but I also find offending people for no reason pointless and rude.

I find the whole idea of religion ridiculous, but I understand some people believe and respect their right to believe.

I think the vast majority of Muslims are peace loving, but if you read certain parts of the Koran it is undeniably inflamatory and encourages followers to be voilent and commit murder.

Confusing to know what to think.



http://douthat.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/01/07/the-blasphemy-we-need/ offers a good perspective there.

Interesting article. Thanks for the link.

It's difficult to look at the Charlie Hebdo cartoons in a vacuum now.

But attempting to, I haven't smiled at a single one. The ones I've seen are gratuitously offensive and unlikely to encourage debate.

Their sole purpose seems to be to offend. If I was a Muslim, I would certainly be offended.

I believe they have the right to offend, but why do it? It just makes people upset and angry. And it certainly isn't going to challenge anyone's beliefs.

More likely to strengthen them if anything.

We have numerous unfunny offensive comedians in the uk.  Why do they do it?  Assume people find it funny even if I don't.  Each to their own. 
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maldini32
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« Reply #115 on: January 08, 2015, 11:35:42 PM »

Ok, I'll say something.

Firstly I'm a Muslim not a devout one by any stretch of the imagination. My parents are very religious and I use to go to mosque pretty much every day after school from the age of 10 through to around 15. I was never taught to a) blow myself up b) kill the infidels c) look for a decent spot to become martyr etc etc you get my point. I was taught about the history of Islam how to live like a decent human being, respect your parents just generally be a good Muslim. I now go to mosque I'd say 3/4 times a year and still none of the a/b/c etc being brainwashed into me.

My parents live in Pakistan and do not cheer when a terrorist blows himself up/kills innocents in the name of Islam.

I never get involved when a person/persons do something horrific in the name of Islam. It's generally the people with a very low IQ or just plain racists/bigots who have a platform to spout the same shit over and over again.

Woodsey I found the stuff you wrote very offensive but I'm probably never going to meet you and at the end of the day it's a forum where anyone can be a hero with a keyboard.

Some of the cartoons that Charlie Hebdo put up I found offensive but I'm not going to kill someone over it.

40 people were killed in Yemen by terrorists last time I checked a muslim country.

The massacre of children recently in Pakistan by terrorists once again a muslim country.

They don't really care who they kill.

Pretty much a thumbs up to everyone of Red Dogs post.
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Woodsey
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« Reply #116 on: January 08, 2015, 11:40:40 PM »

Fair enough mate I respect your view. I know a lot of guys on here especially in the Nottingham poker scene (although play less recently because I'm shit nowadays) and do not hide behind a keyboard, I'm very easy to find should anybody wish to.
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celtic
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« Reply #117 on: January 09, 2015, 12:15:02 AM »

Nice post maldini.

Can confirm woodsey is very hard to miss 😀
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Keefy is back Smiley But for how long?
Woodsey
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« Reply #118 on: January 09, 2015, 12:29:10 AM »

Nice post maldini.

Can confirm woodsey is very hard to miss 😀

Shut it fatty 
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kinboshi
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« Reply #119 on: January 09, 2015, 09:54:54 AM »

Interesting article (via NoFlopsHomer):

http://thegerasites.wordpress.com/2015/01/07/suicide-pact-you-first/
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'The meme for blind faith secures its own perpetuation by the simple unconscious expedient of discouraging rational inquiry.'
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