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Author Topic: Hand dead - ruling  (Read 7662 times)
AdamM
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« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2015, 04:39:30 PM »

well, yes, he's learned a lesson.
keep it buttoned, use the info available.

was a nice change that it wasn't caused by headphones/phone use/tvs/etc
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« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2015, 05:47:48 PM »

So if the action had got back round to seat 2, he'd be able to call, raise or fold?  But because he's complained, his hand's dead? 

(Edit - think I'm being an idiot.  He couldn't check could he, he had to at least call?  Makes sense now.)
« Last Edit: January 26, 2015, 05:49:19 PM by kinboshi » Logged

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« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2015, 06:56:03 PM »

So if the action had got back round to seat 2, he'd be able to call, raise or fold?  But because he's complained, his hand's dead?  

(Edit - think I'm being an idiot.  He couldn't check could he, he had to at least call?  Makes sense now.)

If you missed your turn to act and two players or more have acted your hand is dead from gaining that edge of knowing what's happening after you wether or not it gets back to you, if you miss your turn but everyone checks it may well be different. I doubt you should be allowed to  make aggression.

It really pissed me off in live games when people open fold aswell for the same concept, you know for instance if you want to bluff you have one less player to go through. I've brought it up a few times and no one seems to understand what I'm saying. Backing it up with, but you can open fold on stars #facepalm
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kinboshi
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« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2015, 07:07:27 PM »

So if the action had got back round to seat 2, he'd be able to call, raise or fold?  But because he's complained, his hand's dead? 

(Edit - think I'm being an idiot.  He couldn't check could he, he had to at least call?  Makes sense now.)

If you missed your turn to act and two players or more have acted your hand is dead from gaining that edge of knowing what's happening after you wether or not it gets back to you, if you miss your turn but everyone checks it may well be different. I doubt you should be allowed to  make aggression.

If it was post-flop and you were first to act, then it would be the same as checking, wouldn't it? Obviously different preflop.

Quote
It really pissed me off in live games when people open fold aswell for the same concept, you know for instance if you want to bluff you have one less player to go through. I've brought it up a few times and no one seems to understand what I'm saying. Backing it up with, but you can open fold on stars #facepalm

This one's not as simple as that for me. I understand what you're saying, but sometimes it speeds the game up and it's better than people acting out of turn, etc. I think there are worse crimes at the poker table than this.
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« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2015, 07:14:40 PM »

Yeah in regards to ruling dead heads from missing your turn, we just can't assume people wanted to check, during anytime time pre/post ruling is the same. If you miss your chance to act and don't speak up asap wether it be hiding your hole cards, or dealer being oblivious to where action starts, you can't be allowed to continue in a hand where you find out what's going to happen after you, it's just decided that two actions afterwards is significant to warrant you gained too much free info to carry on.
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« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2015, 07:21:19 PM »


Quote
It really pissed me off in live games when people open fold aswell for the same concept, you know for instance if you want to bluff you have one less player to go through. I've brought it up a few times and no one seems to understand what I'm saying. Backing it up with, but you can open fold on stars #facepalm

This one's not as simple as that for me. I understand what you're saying, but sometimes it speeds the game up and it's better than people acting out of turn, etc. I think there are worse crimes at the poker table than this.

Anything that gives you additional info in a hand where you could gain an advantage I see as ool, yet there is some form of warning or penalty for basically everything else.


Sigh at quote failing.
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AdamM
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« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2015, 12:46:20 PM »

the guy actually looked devastated.
The board was something like K,5,5  K,  5 and I think he was considering his opening bet size when all this action fired round.

His hand was taken off him and it passed round to seat 9 who raked in the pot.
Straight to a break, so there was no follow up discussion about his hand but UI think there's a good chance he had a king taken off him
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« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2015, 02:20:07 PM »

Yeah in regards to ruling dead heads from missing your turn, we just can't assume people wanted to check, during anytime time pre/post ruling is the same. If you miss your chance to act and don't speak up asap wether it be hiding your hole cards, or dealer being oblivious to where action starts, you can't be allowed to continue in a hand where you find out what's going to happen after you, it's just decided that two actions afterwards is significant to warrant you gained too much free info to carry on.

Don't agree with this - given that the OOT action is binding, what info does seat 2 get, that he wouldn't have got by checking?  Presumably seat 5 and 9 assume that he checked?

There is imo a clear distinction between facing a bet (including pre-flop opens) and being able to check.

Also the TDA rule states:

A player skipped by OOT action must defend his right to act. If there is reasonable time and the skipped player has not spoken up by the time substantial action (Rule 35) OOT occurs to his left, the OOT action is binding. The floor will be called to render a decision on how to treat the skipped hand.

So clearly there is discretion available and killing the hand isn't mandatory.

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Boba Fett
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« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2015, 03:13:02 PM »

Everytime I see these threads on here I always think everyone is outrageously harsh on "reasonable time to act/bring it to everyones attention", if you're playing live poker and action is on you, by this time you're probably trying to count the pot, think of betsizes and ranges etc and you're not looking at all to he people on your left (made even harder if a dealer is sitting between you) because you would never expect them to do anything until you have done something.  When they acted, maybe he was looking at his stack/cutting out chips and there was no way he could reasonably see the next people acting behind him nevermind react to it and by the time he could notice it might take them a few secs to think wtf is going on and then speak up.  By this time is absolutely reasonable that 1 person has acted out of turn and 1 or 2 others have followed on with the domino effect and have checked/bet/raised very quickly before the player speaks up.  I think speaking up within a second or two or else your hand is dead is quite unreasonable and I think players should get a reasonable amount of time depending on their point of focus when everything kicked off, its absolutely unfair for them to have their hand killed every time when theyre the one person that didnt do anything wrong.

Personally I think the dealers should be more on top of this type of thing and stopping the action and returning it to the original player before it gets out of hand.
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« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2015, 03:34:10 PM »

Everytime I see these threads on here I always think everyone is outrageously harsh on "reasonable time to act/bring it to everyones attention", if you're playing live poker and action is on you, by this time you're probably trying to count the pot, think of betsizes and ranges etc and you're not looking at all to he people on your left (made even harder if a dealer is sitting between you) because you would never expect them to do anything until you have done something.  When they acted, maybe he was looking at his stack/cutting out chips and there was no way he could reasonably see the next people acting behind him nevermind react to it and by the time he could notice it might take them a few secs to think wtf is going on and then speak up.  By this time is absolutely reasonable that 1 person has acted out of turn and 1 or 2 others have followed on with the domino effect and have checked/bet/raised very quickly before the player speaks up.  I think speaking up within a second or two or else your hand is dead is quite unreasonable and I think players should get a reasonable amount of time depending on their point of focus when everything kicked off, its absolutely unfair for them to have their hand killed every time when theyre the one person that didnt do anything wrong.

Personally I think the dealers should be more on top of this type of thing and stopping the action and returning it to the original player before it gets out of hand.

All of this, and doubly so for the bolded bit.
Too many dealers looking at the football/valets/middle distance and not controlling their table.
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« Reply #25 on: January 27, 2015, 05:37:01 PM »

Everytime I see these threads on here I always think everyone is outrageously harsh on "reasonable time to act/bring it to everyones attention", if you're playing live poker and action is on you, by this time you're probably trying to count the pot, think of betsizes and ranges etc and you're not looking at all to he people on your left (made even harder if a dealer is sitting between you) because you would never expect them to do anything until you have done something.  When they acted, maybe he was looking at his stack/cutting out chips and there was no way he could reasonably see the next people acting behind him nevermind react to it and by the time he could notice it might take them a few secs to think wtf is going on and then speak up.  By this time is absolutely reasonable that 1 person has acted out of turn and 1 or 2 others have followed on with the domino effect and have checked/bet/raised very quickly before the player speaks up.  I think speaking up within a second or two or else your hand is dead is quite unreasonable and I think players should get a reasonable amount of time depending on their point of focus when everything kicked off, its absolutely unfair for them to have their hand killed every time when theyre the one person that didnt do anything wrong.

Personally I think the dealers should be more on top of this type of thing and stopping the action and returning it to the original player before it gets out of hand.

All of this, and doubly so for the bolded bit.
Too many dealers looking at the football/valets/middle distance and not controlling their table.

This tilts the shit out of me at DTD!!

You're at f**king work!! Stop watching TV!!!
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Oxford_HRV
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« Reply #26 on: January 27, 2015, 07:08:02 PM »

Yeah in regards to ruling dead heads from missing your turn, we just can't assume people wanted to check, during anytime time pre/post ruling is the same. If you miss your chance to act and don't speak up asap wether it be hiding your hole cards, or dealer being oblivious to where action starts, you can't be allowed to continue in a hand where you find out what's going to happen after you, it's just decided that two actions afterwards is significant to warrant you gained too much free info to carry on.

Don't agree with this - given that the OOT action is binding, what info does seat 2 get, that he wouldn't have got by checking?  Presumably seat 5 and 9 assume that he checked?

There is imo a clear distinction between facing a bet (including pre-flop opens) and being able to check.

Also the TDA rule states:

A player skipped by OOT action must defend his right to act. If there is reasonable time and the skipped player has not spoken up by the time substantial action (Rule 35) OOT occurs to his left, the OOT action is binding. The floor will be called to render a decision on how to treat the skipped hand.

So clearly there is discretion available and killing the hand isn't mandatory.



We can't always assume seat 2 was going to check! the info theyve now got is if they wanted to bet but now they seen  the following action and figure they are behind and fold or flopped nuts and shove ect, other players lose out whatever that bet couldve been or lose out on folding if action went in another way.

OFCOURSE killing a hand is not mandatory, there is so much discretion involved but no one has eyes everywhere, and it's rarely been the case when I've seen players get missed out.

I don't agree with it either, but I'm aware of nearly all UK card rooms stating hands getting killed if you miss your turn and two players act after you, therefore you've gained a 'significant' edge.
How much easier would poker be if you knew what the next two betting actions were going to have been if you checked. So I understand why it's there as a rule.

Simply, dealers should be better at their jobs. Millions of mistakes could be rectified/stopped from escalating just from a competent dealer concentrating.
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« Reply #27 on: January 27, 2015, 09:33:02 PM »

Everytime I see these threads on here I always think everyone is outrageously harsh on "reasonable time to act/bring it to everyones attention", if you're playing live poker and action is on you, by this time you're probably trying to count the pot, think of betsizes and ranges etc and you're not looking at all to he people on your left (made even harder if a dealer is sitting between you) because you would never expect them to do anything until you have done something.  When they acted, maybe he was looking at his stack/cutting out chips and there was no way he could reasonably see the next people acting behind him nevermind react to it and by the time he could notice it might take them a few secs to think wtf is going on and then speak up.  By this time is absolutely reasonable that 1 person has acted out of turn and 1 or 2 others have followed on with the domino effect and have checked/bet/raised very quickly before the player speaks up.  I think speaking up within a second or two or else your hand is dead is quite unreasonable and I think players should get a reasonable amount of time depending on their point of focus when everything kicked off, its absolutely unfair for them to have their hand killed every time when theyre the one person that didnt do anything wrong.

Personally I think the dealers should be more on top of this type of thing and stopping the action and returning it to the original player before it gets out of hand.

All of this, and doubly so for the bolded bit.
Too many dealers looking at the football/valets/middle distance and not controlling their table.

This tilts the shit out of me at DTD!!

You're at f**king work!! Stop watching TV!!!


Or trying to be evryones mate or giving your life story. Do your job.
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« Reply #28 on: January 28, 2015, 09:44:02 AM »



Quite interesting how this thread developed.

It was quickly established that the player had erred, & his hand - according to the rules - should be declared dead.

But then it changed direction, & 4 or 5 players blamed the Dealer.

We don't know at what venue this arose, so we have no idea if the dealing standard is good, bad, or indifferent.

The original ERROR was by the player, not the Dealer. No question about that. And it's possible that the Dealer should have spotted it, though the OP says "it all happened VERY quickly".

How do we end up pointing fingers at the dealer? The original error was not by the dealer, it was by the player.

Even Matt The Hoople Russell chimed in, "it tilts the shit out of me". How would he ever know, he rarely lasts more than an orbit. Is that the dealers fault, too?



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« Reply #29 on: January 28, 2015, 10:12:34 AM »



Quite interesting how this thread developed.

It was quickly established that the player had erred, & his hand - according to the rules - should be declared dead.

But then it changed direction, & 4 or 5 players blamed the Dealer.

We don't know at what venue this arose, so we have no idea if the dealing standard is good, bad, or indifferent.

The original ERROR was by the player, not the Dealer. No question about that. And it's possible that the Dealer should have spotted it, though the OP says "it all happened VERY quickly".

How do we end up pointing fingers at the dealer? The original error was not by the dealer, it was by the player.

Even Matt The Hoople Russell chimed in, "it tilts the shit out of me". How would he ever know, he rarely lasts more than an orbit. Is that the dealers fault, too?







 
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