The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[Mark_Porter]

Just something anecdotal to add to the poverty chat.

I have spent a number of years as a chair of school governors in a school located in one of the most run down areas of the country. I don’t know how we define poverty in this country but I see kids that are regularly not fed, clothed or cared for.

Many of these kids worlds don’t extend any further than the end of the road. They get very little other experiences – a reason we try and use as much funding as possible for school trips. They have never seen the sea, a cow etc.

The majority of these children’s families have never worked. Generation after generation have never worked. The idea that their children would work is completely foreign – most see school as a complete waste of time.

Some of the kids will break the cycle and get some qualifications but many won’t. Before I got in on the ground, I always used to have the attitude of lazy, get off your arses, get out of bed, show some initiative -  go and knock on doors and look for a job etc. etc. Seeing how these children grow up, go through the system and get spat out the other end – it completely changed my mindset. 

It’s interesting. Any views on how we can improve this?

This was interesting to me:

https://www.ted.com/talks/rutger_bregman_poverty_isn_t_a_lack_of_character_it_s_a_lack_of_cash/up-next?language=en

At a top line level, I don't have a clue and don't have the knowledge to throw out suggestions. The one thing I do think is that cutting their benefits and telling them to buck their ideas up is not going to work.

We do lots of small things to try and make a difference. Within the school we have provided "meal packs" for the kids to take home, full on breakfast clubs - we basically have become a small food bank.

Adding that with trying to give the kids as many enriching experiences as possible. Unfortunately, when Mum and Dad are both drug users, and regularly beat each other up - a trip to the seaside isn't going to turn the child into a future lawyer.

It annoys me that the toughest schools tend to get caught in the cycle. I.e. the area is rough, the job is hard, the quality of teachers you attract is low. etc.

[kukushkin88]

Just something anecdotal to add to the poverty chat.

I have spent a number of years as a chair of school governors in a school located in one of the most run down areas of the country. I don’t know how we define poverty in this country but I see kids that are regularly not fed, clothed or cared for.

Many of these kids worlds don’t extend any further than the end of the road. They get very little other experiences – a reason we try and use as much funding as possible for school trips. They have never seen the sea, a cow etc.

The majority of these children’s families have never worked. Generation after generation have never worked. The idea that their children would work is completely foreign – most see school as a complete waste of time.

Some of the kids will break the cycle and get some qualifications but many won’t. Before I got in on the ground, I always used to have the attitude of lazy, get off your arses, get out of bed, show some initiative -  go and knock on doors and look for a job etc. etc. Seeing how these children grow up, go through the system and get spat out the other end – it completely changed my mindset. 

It’s interesting. Any views on how we can improve this?

This was interesting to me:

https://www.ted.com/talks/rutger_bregman_poverty_isn_t_a_lack_of_character_it_s_a_lack_of_cash/up-next?language=en

At a top line level, I don't have a clue and don't have the knowledge to throw out suggestions. The one thing I do think is that cutting their benefits and telling them to buck their ideas up is not going to work.

We do lots of small things to try and make a difference. Within the school we have provided "meal packs" for the kids to take home, full on breakfast clubs - we basically have become a small food bank.

Adding that with trying to give the kids as many enriching experiences as possible. Unfortunately, when Mum and Dad are both drug users, and regularly beat each other up - a trip to the seaside isn't going to turn the child into a future lawyer.

It annoys me that the toughest schools tend to get caught in the cycle. I.e. the area is rough, the job is hard, the quality of teachers you attract is low. etc.

It’s admirable what you’re doing. Hopefully meaningful, sustained, targeted investment isn’t far away.

[Mark_Porter]

Just something anecdotal to add to the poverty chat.

I have spent a number of years as a chair of school governors in a school located in one of the most run down areas of the country. I don’t know how we define poverty in this country but I see kids that are regularly not fed, clothed or cared for.

Many of these kids worlds don’t extend any further than the end of the road. They get very little other experiences – a reason we try and use as much funding as possible for school trips. They have never seen the sea, a cow etc.

The majority of these children’s families have never worked. Generation after generation have never worked. The idea that their children would work is completely foreign – most see school as a complete waste of time.

Some of the kids will break the cycle and get some qualifications but many won’t. Before I got in on the ground, I always used to have the attitude of lazy, get off your arses, get out of bed, show some initiative -  go and knock on doors and look for a job etc. etc. Seeing how these children grow up, go through the system and get spat out the other end – it completely changed my mindset. 

It’s interesting. Any views on how we can improve this?

This was interesting to me:

https://www.ted.com/talks/rutger_bregman_poverty_isn_t_a_lack_of_character_it_s_a_lack_of_cash/up-next?language=en

At a top line level, I don't have a clue and don't have the knowledge to throw out suggestions. The one thing I do think is that cutting their benefits and telling them to buck their ideas up is not going to work.

We do lots of small things to try and make a difference. Within the school we have provided "meal packs" for the kids to take home, full on breakfast clubs - we basically have become a small food bank.

Adding that with trying to give the kids as many enriching experiences as possible. Unfortunately, when Mum and Dad are both drug users, and regularly beat each other up - a trip to the seaside isn't going to turn the child into a future lawyer.

It annoys me that the toughest schools tend to get caught in the cycle. I.e. the area is rough, the job is hard, the quality of teachers you attract is low. etc.

It’s admirable what you’re doing. Hopefully meaningful, sustained, targeted investment isn’t far away.

I am actually not doing it any more. I have recently moved away from the area so couldn't give them the time any more.

It's not something you can do for a long period of time - drives you mad. Now I am back on the south coast, looked at getting involved with a school down here but seems far harder to make a real impact.

Would so recommend being a school governor. The skill level of a governing body is usually low (retired people + parents) - you can make a big impact and it's eye opening for sure.

[BigAdz]

Just something anecdotal to add to the poverty chat.

I have spent a number of years as a chair of school governors in a school located in one of the most run down areas of the country. I don’t know how we define poverty in this country but I see kids that are regularly not fed, clothed or cared for.

Many of these kids worlds don’t extend any further than the end of the road. They get very little other experiences – a reason we try and use as much funding as possible for school trips. They have never seen the sea, a cow etc.

The majority of these children’s families have never worked. Generation after generation have never worked. The idea that their children would work is completely foreign – most see school as a complete waste of time.

Some of the kids will break the cycle and get some qualifications but many won’t. Before I got in on the ground, I always used to have the attitude of lazy, get off your arses, get out of bed, show some initiative -  go and knock on doors and look for a job etc. etc. Seeing how these children grow up, go through the system and get spat out the other end – it completely changed my mindset. 

It’s interesting. Any views on how we can improve this?

This was interesting to me:

https://www.ted.com/talks/rutger_bregman_poverty_isn_t_a_lack_of_character_it_s_a_lack_of_cash/up-next?language=en

At a top line level, I don't have a clue and don't have the knowledge to throw out suggestions. The one thing I do think is that cutting their benefits and telling them to buck their ideas up is not going to work.

We do lots of small things to try and make a difference. Within the school we have provided "meal packs" for the kids to take home, full on breakfast clubs - we basically have become a small food bank.

Adding that with trying to give the kids as many enriching experiences as possible. Unfortunately, when Mum and Dad are both drug users, and regularly beat each other up - a trip to the seaside isn't going to turn the child into a future lawyer.

It annoys me that the toughest schools tend to get caught in the cycle. I.e. the area is rough, the job is hard, the quality of teachers you attract is low. etc.

Im sorry, and I probably stand alone on this, but based on your experience, isnt more investment in these people just going to see them spend more on drink and drugs?

You HAVE TO WANT to dig yourself out before you can. We have several homeless people in my town who dont want anything more than they get at the moment. I know them because i went to school with them, and they gave up on normal a long time ago. They sit on the street during the day, not always pissed but when they get their dole they spend it quick. They are offered overnight accomodation but only take it when its cold/wet. They are happy to live like this and yes, they would change it but only if someone hands it to them on a plate. They just dont want to work, or change, because they are given enough handouts to get by.

Before I did my current job I spent time surveying social housing. Boy, that was an eye opener. It made me realize that very few people need to be in poverty, but you can get there quite easily if you try, or dont try, as the case may be.

Doesn't sit well with me.

[kukushkin88]

Just something anecdotal to add to the poverty chat.

I have spent a number of years as a chair of school governors in a school located in one of the most run down areas of the country. I don’t know how we define poverty in this country but I see kids that are regularly not fed, clothed or cared for.

Many of these kids worlds don’t extend any further than the end of the road. They get very little other experiences – a reason we try and use as much funding as possible for school trips. They have never seen the sea, a cow etc.

The majority of these children’s families have never worked. Generation after generation have never worked. The idea that their children would work is completely foreign – most see school as a complete waste of time.

Some of the kids will break the cycle and get some qualifications but many won’t. Before I got in on the ground, I always used to have the attitude of lazy, get off your arses, get out of bed, show some initiative -  go and knock on doors and look for a job etc. etc. Seeing how these children grow up, go through the system and get spat out the other end – it completely changed my mindset. 

It’s interesting. Any views on how we can improve this?

This was interesting to me:

https://www.ted.com/talks/rutger_bregman_poverty_isn_t_a_lack_of_character_it_s_a_lack_of_cash/up-next?language=en

At a top line level, I don't have a clue and don't have the knowledge to throw out suggestions. The one thing I do think is that cutting their benefits and telling them to buck their ideas up is not going to work.

We do lots of small things to try and make a difference. Within the school we have provided "meal packs" for the kids to take home, full on breakfast clubs - we basically have become a small food bank.

Adding that with trying to give the kids as many enriching experiences as possible. Unfortunately, when Mum and Dad are both drug users, and regularly beat each other up - a trip to the seaside isn't going to turn the child into a future lawyer.

It annoys me that the toughest schools tend to get caught in the cycle. I.e. the area is rough, the job is hard, the quality of teachers you attract is low. etc.

Im sorry, and I probably stand alone on this, but based on your experience, isnt more investment in these people just going to see them spend more on drink and drugs?

You HAVE TO WANT to dig yourself out before you can. We have several homeless people in my town who dont want anything more than they get at the moment. I know them because i went to school with them, and they gave up on normal a long time ago. They sit on the street during the day, not always pissed but when they get their dole they spend it quick. They are offered overnight accomodation but only take it when its cold/wet. They are happy to live like this and yes, they would change it but only if someone hands it to them on a plate. They just dont want to work, or change, because they are given enough handouts to get by.

Before I did my current job I spent time surveying social housing. Boy, that was an eye opener. It made me realize that very few people need to be in poverty, but you can get there quite easily if you try, or dont try, as the case may be.

Doesn't sit well with me.

https://m.huffingtonpost.co.uk/harry-quilterpinner/homelessness_b_16469756.html

[Jon MW]

Just something anecdotal to add to the poverty chat.

I have spent a number of years as a chair of school governors in a school located in one of the most run down areas of the country. I don’t know how we define poverty in this country but I see kids that are regularly not fed, clothed or cared for.

Many of these kids worlds don’t extend any further than the end of the road. They get very little other experiences – a reason we try and use as much funding as possible for school trips. They have never seen the sea, a cow etc.

The majority of these children’s families have never worked. Generation after generation have never worked. The idea that their children would work is completely foreign – most see school as a complete waste of time.

Some of the kids will break the cycle and get some qualifications but many won’t. Before I got in on the ground, I always used to have the attitude of lazy, get off your arses, get out of bed, show some initiative -  go and knock on doors and look for a job etc. etc. Seeing how these children grow up, go through the system and get spat out the other end – it completely changed my mindset.  

It’s interesting. Any views on how we can improve this?

This was interesting to me:

https://www.ted.com/talks/rutger_bregman_poverty_isn_t_a_lack_of_character_it_s_a_lack_of_cash/up-next?language=en

At a top line level, I don't have a clue and don't have the knowledge to throw out suggestions. The one thing I do think is that cutting their benefits and telling them to buck their ideas up is not going to work.

We do lots of small things to try and make a difference. Within the school we have provided "meal packs" for the kids to take home, full on breakfast clubs - we basically have become a small food bank.

Adding that with trying to give the kids as many enriching experiences as possible. Unfortunately, when Mum and Dad are both drug users, and regularly beat each other up - a trip to the seaside isn't going to turn the child into a future lawyer.

It annoys me that the toughest schools tend to get caught in the cycle. I.e. the area is rough, the job is hard, the quality of teachers you attract is low. etc.

Im sorry, and I probably stand alone on this, but based on your experience, isnt more investment in these people just going to see them spend more on drink and drugs?

You HAVE TO WANT to dig yourself out before you can. We have several homeless people in my town who dont want anything more than they get at the moment. I know them because i went to school with them, and they gave up on normal a long time ago. They sit on the street during the day, not always pissed but when they get their dole they spend it quick. They are offered overnight accomodation but only take it when its cold/wet. They are happy to live like this and yes, they would change it but only if someone hands it to them on a plate. They just dont want to work, or change, because they are given enough handouts to get by.

Before I did my current job I spent time surveying social housing. Boy, that was an eye opener. It made me realize that very few people need to be in poverty, but you can get there quite easily if you try, or dont try, as the case may be.

Doesn't sit well with me.

I might put it slightly more diplomatically but in terms of your initial commment (Mark);

...
 I don’t know how we define poverty in this country but I see kids that are regularly not fed, clothed or cared for.
...

Given the other stuff you wrote the problem very much just seems to be the, not cared for, part much more than anything economic.


The only way out of the cycle is by education - unfortunately the only way for them to get good education is via their parents.

Unless the government ever decides to put a tonne of money into government run state boarding schools I can't see a way out of the cycle for many in the 'Benefits Class' (apart from the occasional outstanding individuals who do it on their own despite their parents).

[Mark_Porter]

Just something anecdotal to add to the poverty chat.

I have spent a number of years as a chair of school governors in a school located in one of the most run down areas of the country. I don’t know how we define poverty in this country but I see kids that are regularly not fed, clothed or cared for.

Many of these kids worlds don’t extend any further than the end of the road. They get very little other experiences – a reason we try and use as much funding as possible for school trips. They have never seen the sea, a cow etc.

The majority of these children’s families have never worked. Generation after generation have never worked. The idea that their children would work is completely foreign – most see school as a complete waste of time.

Some of the kids will break the cycle and get some qualifications but many won’t. Before I got in on the ground, I always used to have the attitude of lazy, get off your arses, get out of bed, show some initiative -  go and knock on doors and look for a job etc. etc. Seeing how these children grow up, go through the system and get spat out the other end – it completely changed my mindset. 

It’s interesting. Any views on how we can improve this?

This was interesting to me:

https://www.ted.com/talks/rutger_bregman_poverty_isn_t_a_lack_of_character_it_s_a_lack_of_cash/up-next?language=en

At a top line level, I don't have a clue and don't have the knowledge to throw out suggestions. The one thing I do think is that cutting their benefits and telling them to buck their ideas up is not going to work.

We do lots of small things to try and make a difference. Within the school we have provided "meal packs" for the kids to take home, full on breakfast clubs - we basically have become a small food bank.

Adding that with trying to give the kids as many enriching experiences as possible. Unfortunately, when Mum and Dad are both drug users, and regularly beat each other up - a trip to the seaside isn't going to turn the child into a future lawyer.

It annoys me that the toughest schools tend to get caught in the cycle. I.e. the area is rough, the job is hard, the quality of teachers you attract is low. etc.

Im sorry, and I probably stand alone on this, but based on your experience, isnt more investment in these people just going to see them spend more on drink and drugs?

You HAVE TO WANT to dig yourself out before you can. We have several homeless people in my town who dont want anything more than they get at the moment. I know them because i went to school with them, and they gave up on normal a long time ago. They sit on the street during the day, not always pissed but when they get their dole they spend it quick. They are offered overnight accomodation but only take it when its cold/wet. They are happy to live like this and yes, they would change it but only if someone hands it to them on a plate. They just dont want to work, or change, because they are given enough handouts to get by.

Before I did my current job I spent time surveying social housing. Boy, that was an eye opener. It made me realize that very few people need to be in poverty, but you can get there quite easily if you try, or dont try, as the case may be.

Doesn't sit well with me.

I totally agree with you, that is where the money will go.

As you say, the issue is wanting to dig yourself out. In this particular area, generation after generation have warped the view of normal (i.e. it has become not working, receiving benefits, terrible social housing, drug abuse, domestic violence etc.) From an outside looking in viewpoint - I wanted these people to "dig themselves out", show some initiative, buck their ideas up etc.

I quickly realised that the aspirational mindset that me and you are born with just didn't exist. Dig themselves out of what? To where? There is apathy that I don't think is born of just pure laziness but that's all they have ever known or been shown.

 

[MANTIS01]

When I was a kid and very poor the state did loads to help. Free milk in morning, free dinner at lunchtime, free education including free stellar grammar school, free library to study in, free dentist and doctor, amazing. Other countries and people in genuine poverty must be so envious. I took full advantage of all the opportunities. Sorry we can’t force people to make a better life for themselves but I will keep giving a huge chunk of my salary to help.

[nirvana]

A bit to Jon's point. There is a world of difference between kids being brought up in poverty to kids being dragged up with no values and no role models. The answers are still based on money but it's most needed in the indirect services that could help kids in these situations rather than necessarily being based on benefits levels

[TightEnd]

there are graphics and then there are graphics...

So what might happen next? It's complicated...

[TightEnd]

A timely Brexit - 29/03/2019 - is now rated less than 50% likely on Betfair

[TightEnd]

YouGov in Times today puts "Leave was the wrong decision" well ahead

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/brexit-poll-shows-growing-number-believe-leave-vote-was-a-mistake-qfn3kclgc

"In hindsight, do you think Britain was right or wrong to vote to leave the European Union?"

Right 38% (-2)
Wrong 49% (+2)
Don't know 13% (+1)

That is an 11 point lead for "wrong", the largest lead on record

"Do you think Britain will be economically better or worse off after we leave the European Union, or will it make no difference?"

Better off 24%
Worse off 42%
No difference 19%

Net lead 18 points for "worse off", second highest on record

[TightEnd]

Unite leader warns Labour against backing second EU referendum

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/05/unite-leader-warns-labour-against-backing-second-eu-referendum

[TightEnd]

Liam Fox wants the deal to be passed next Tuesday.

Tells Int Trade select committee:

" When you are in prison and someone offers you a key you take it."

the rhetoric is a bit different now than 2016!

[ripple11]

some chatter that the DUP have upped the (big blind) ante further by threatening not just to vote against the deal but then support Labour in the no confidence vote that will follow. Which would seem remarkable given Corbyns view on a United Ireland but we are in interesting times

in the light of that

Confidence vote maths.
320 to win (strips out 11 non voting MPs - speakers + SF).
Tories have 314 + 2 Ind ex Tories, so 316.
Labour needs DUP, all other parties + 5 Ind ex Labour MPs to get to 322.
Lady Sylvia Hermon can vote either way.

It's tight.

I had previously thought May wouldn't lose a no conf vote but if the DUP do swing (worst use of a billion quid ever, Mrs May) then its all up for grabs

Thanks for the maths...not easy to find this info , even on google 

Although unlikely for the DUP to vote against....apparently its then up to all parties to try and form a Government......so Tories get a new (interim?) leader (Gove,Rudd maybe?) who smooths things over with the DUP and we start again!