The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[kukushkin88]

Does the report say how many of the 20% drink & smoke? Does it tell us how many are still in their pyjamas in the afternoon?

And churn out as many babies as they can without regards to the consequences.

Two great adverts for a Socialist Revolution right there.

Citizen Smith would have you at the very top of his list.

Since they won’t answer themselves, there’s form on this. Where do we think Mantis and Adz learnt what they know about this subject?

First hand experience mate

Oh and my dad stopped smoking so we could afford bread

Well done to your mum and dad, it’s great that it turned out well *. So based on your experience of two people in a nation of tens million’s, you are well informed on the subject?

[MANTIS01]

As somebody who has employed thousands of minimum wage employees I can confirm there is a range of attitudes and work ethics

You seem unable to clarify the statistics you quote into a range of attitudes and work ethics

Thus I would propose you aren’t so well informed. You are just using a blanket % as leverage to prove a point.

Just lazy, like many of the 20%.

[kukushkin88]

As somebody who has employed thousands of minimum wage employees I can confirm there is a range of attitudes and work ethics

You seem unable to clarify the statistics you quote into a range of attitudes and work ethics

Thus I would propose you aren’t so well informed. You are just using a blanket % as leverage to prove a point.

Just lazy, like many of the 20%.

:-) If you have a way to read the minds/understand the thoughts and motivations of ~15 million people, I’d like to hear it. So would the DWP. Seems harsh to set me a task, so impossible no one has ever been dumb enough to even try it and then call me lazy when I can’t do it.

[kukushkin88]

A couple of great documentaries on Netflix:

‘United States of Amnesia’ and ‘Best of Enemies’.

Maybe enough playground style squabbling for the morning. Everyone interested in politics and quality of thought, please watch these two.

[Jon MW]

Just been reading that Mark Carney thinks my Waitrose bill will increase by 10% after No Deal

Needed a significant serving of foie gras and a coupla large gin & dubbonets to settle my nerves

Simply harrowing darling

I doubt the more than 20% of the UK population who live in poverty find it as amusing.

I found this on UK poverty from the Adam Smith Institute:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.adamsmith.org/blog/to-explain-the-un-rapporteur-on-uk-extreme-poverty%3fformat=amp

Doesn't that article just say that the "UN" report on poverty here was somewhat misleading because the official measure of poverty is actually a measure of inequality?

I agree it's making a good point but it doesn't seem to quite match your general tone(?)

It’s saying that in order to work out if we have a problem with poverty, we should measure ourselves against the poorest nations on earth. I thought this was flawed. Also, Rod Liddle (see below) seems like a bad joke.

It’s also written in a style and uses language that makes it looks like the author learnt their craft from the comments section of the DM, given that they didn’t, it’s interesting to wonder why they write in this way. The ASI has in the past put itself forward as having intellectual merit.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trouble_with_Atheism

I kind of wondered why you linked to it, I agree there is a problem with how it's written but the central point is a good one.

A lot of anti-poverty organisations routinely use language that implies that what you call poverty in the UK is identical to what you call it in developing countries. Just last week, for example, the BBC carried a report from a group complaining about Dickensian levels of poverty. The problem was that the case study that accompanied it showed that it was, in fact, nothing like Dickensian levels of poverty. There is a problem but I think the continued use of hyperbole and colourful exaggerated metaphors somewhat undermines the actual problem by pretending it's massively more than it is (that is the problem is, generally, one of inequality rather than actual poverty).

[MANTIS01]

Can you at least tell me how many of the 20% voted for Brexit? How many voted to exasperate their own economic situation and why?

Are most of these 20% the stupid, dullards you speak about?

[kukushkin88]

Just been reading that Mark Carney thinks my Waitrose bill will increase by 10% after No Deal

Needed a significant serving of foie gras and a coupla large gin & dubbonets to settle my nerves

Simply harrowing darling

I doubt the more than 20% of the UK population who live in poverty find it as amusing.

I found this on UK poverty from the Adam Smith Institute:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.adamsmith.org/blog/to-explain-the-un-rapporteur-on-uk-extreme-poverty%3fformat=amp

Doesn't that article just say that the "UN" report on poverty here was somewhat misleading because the official measure of poverty is actually a measure of inequality?

I agree it's making a good point but it doesn't seem to quite match your general tone(?)

It’s saying that in order to work out if we have a problem with poverty, we should measure ourselves against the poorest nations on earth. I thought this was flawed. Also, Rod Liddle (see below) seems like a bad joke.

It’s also written in a style and uses language that makes it looks like the author learnt their craft from the comments section of the DM, given that they didn’t, it’s interesting to wonder why they write in this way. The ASI has in the past put itself forward as having intellectual merit.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trouble_with_Atheism

I kind of wondered why you linked to it, I agree there is a problem with how it's written but the central point is a good one.

A lot of anti-poverty organisations routinely use language that implies that what you call poverty in the UK is identical to what you call it in developing countries. Just last week, for example, the BBC carried a report from a group complaining about Dickensian levels of poverty. The problem was that the case study that accompanied it showed that it was, in fact, nothing like Dickensian levels of poverty. There is a problem but I think the continued use of hyperbole and colourful exaggerated metaphors somewhat undermines the actual problem by pretending it's massively more than it is (that is the problem is, generally, one of inequality rather than actual poverty).

Yeah, good points. Accuracy of comparison and appropriate use of language (when intentionally misused) are so important. Comparisons to the worlds poorest countries have no value imo, neither do comparisons to Dickensian Britain.

[BigAdz]

Does the report say how many of the 20% drink & smoke? Does it tell us how many are still in their pyjamas in the afternoon?

And churn out as many babies as they can without regards to the consequences.

Two great adverts for a Socialist Revolution right there.

Citizen Smith would have you at the very top of his list.

Since they won’t answer themselves, there’s form on this. Where do we think Mantis and Adz learnt what they know about this subject?

Answer what?

I don't see a question.

You set yourself up for some of this, but some of us do actually leave the forum for a few minutes each day, to wash, dress, go to work etc.

No wonder you are champion of the lazy 20%.....

[kukushkin88]

Does the report say how many of the 20% drink & smoke? Does it tell us how many are still in their pyjamas in the afternoon?

And churn out as many babies as they can without regards to the consequences.

Two great adverts for a Socialist Revolution right there.

Citizen Smith would have you at the very top of his list.

Since they won’t answer themselves, there’s form on this. Where do we think Mantis and Adz learnt what they know about this subject?

Answer what?

I don't see a question.

You set yourself up for some of this, but some of us do actually leave the forum for a few minutes each day, to wash, dress, go to work etc.

No wonder you are champion of the lazy 20%.....

The question wasn’t directed at you this time but it’s plain as day, maybe look again. The question is where did you and Mantis learn what you (don’t) know about poverty in the UK?? (two this time, just in case)

[kukushkin88]

Can you at least tell me how many of the 20% voted for Brexit? How many voted to exasperate their own economic situation and why?

Are most of these 20% the stupid, dullards you speak about?

Again, you’re asking for data that no one has. This isn’t bad though:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0176268018301320

[kukushkin88]

Can you at least tell me how many of the 20% voted for Brexit? How many voted to exasperate their own economic situation and why?

Are most of these 20% the stupid, dullards you speak about?

Again, you’re asking for data that no one has. This isn’t bad though:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0176268018301320

Looks like old age, low educational attainment and unemployment are the top three characteristics for Leave voters. So Leave voters will have above average representation amongst those in poverty.

[MANTIS01]

Does the report say how many of the 20% drink & smoke? Does it tell us how many are still in their pyjamas in the afternoon?

And churn out as many babies as they can without regards to the consequences.

Two great adverts for a Socialist Revolution right there.

Citizen Smith would have you at the very top of his list.

Since they won’t answer themselves, there’s form on this. Where do we think Mantis and Adz learnt what they know about this subject?

Answer what?

I don't see a question.

You set yourself up for some of this, but some of us do actually leave the forum for a few minutes each day, to wash, dress, go to work etc.

No wonder you are champion of the lazy 20%.....

The question wasn’t directed at you this time but it’s plain as day, maybe look again. The question is where did you and Mantis learn what you (don’t) know about poverty in the UK?? (two this time, just in case)

You received an answer..

a) direct personal experience
b) an employer of swathes in this situation
c) travelling the world
d) study & education

Couple of questions for you...

Aside from Google and Wikipedia what is it about your credentials that make you an expert? Have you ever actually been in poverty yourself?

With regard to Leave voters in poverty would you say these are the racists you so disdain?

Anyway, you would think that the lowly educated and unemployed would fist-pump an end to unskilled labour into the country. We have heard a lot from company directors during this transition, such as Toyota who say they will lose about a trillion pounds a day after Brexit. But we've also heard from employers of unskilled labour who say that without Eastern Europeans they will capitulate because native Brits just won't do these kind of jobs. Why do you think the unemployed in poverty won't do these kind of jobs?

[Mark_Porter]

Just something anecdotal to add to the poverty chat.

I have spent a number of years as a chair of school governors in a school located in one of the most run down areas of the country. I don’t know how we define poverty in this country but I see kids that are regularly not fed, clothed or cared for.

Many of these kids worlds don’t extend any further than the end of the road. They get very little other experiences – a reason we try and use as much funding as possible for school trips. They have never seen the sea, a cow etc.

The majority of these children’s families have never worked. Generation after generation have never worked. The idea that their children would work is completely foreign – most see school as a complete waste of time.

Some of the kids will break the cycle and get some qualifications but many won’t. Before I got in on the ground, I always used to have the attitude of lazy, get off your arses, get out of bed, show some initiative -  go and knock on doors and look for a job etc. etc. Seeing how these children grow up, go through the system and get spat out the other end – it completely changed my mindset. 

[kukushkin88]

Just something anecdotal to add to the poverty chat.

I have spent a number of years as a chair of school governors in a school located in one of the most run down areas of the country. I don’t know how we define poverty in this country but I see kids that are regularly not fed, clothed or cared for.

Many of these kids worlds don’t extend any further than the end of the road. They get very little other experiences – a reason we try and use as much funding as possible for school trips. They have never seen the sea, a cow etc.

The majority of these children’s families have never worked. Generation after generation have never worked. The idea that their children would work is completely foreign – most see school as a complete waste of time.

Some of the kids will break the cycle and get some qualifications but many won’t. Before I got in on the ground, I always used to have the attitude of lazy, get off your arses, get out of bed, show some initiative -  go and knock on doors and look for a job etc. etc. Seeing how these children grow up, go through the system and get spat out the other end – it completely changed my mindset. 

It’s interesting. Any views on how we can improve this?

This was interesting to me:

https://www.ted.com/talks/rutger_bregman_poverty_isn_t_a_lack_of_character_it_s_a_lack_of_cash/up-next?language=en

[kukushkin88]

Does the report say how many of the 20% drink & smoke? Does it tell us how many are still in their pyjamas in the afternoon?

And churn out as many babies as they can without regards to the consequences.

Two great adverts for a Socialist Revolution right there.

Citizen Smith would have you at the very top of his list.

Since they won’t answer themselves, there’s form on this. Where do we think Mantis and Adz learnt what they know about this subject?

Answer what?

I don't see a question.

You set yourself up for some of this, but some of us do actually leave the forum for a few minutes each day, to wash, dress, go to work etc.

No wonder you are champion of the lazy 20%.....

The question wasn’t directed at you this time but it’s plain as day, maybe look again. The question is where did you and Mantis learn what you (don’t) know about poverty in the UK?? (two this time, just in case)

You received an answer..

a) direct personal experience
b) an employer of swathes in this situation
c) travelling the world
d) study & education

Couple of questions for you...

Aside from Google and Wikipedia what is it about your credentials that make you an expert? Have you ever actually been in poverty yourself?

With regard to Leave voters in poverty would you say these are the racists you so disdain?

Anyway, you would think that the lowly educated and unemployed would fist-pump an end to unskilled labour into the country. We have heard a lot from company directors during this transition, such as Toyota who say they will lose about a trillion pounds a day after Brexit. But we've also heard from employers of unskilled labour who say that without Eastern Europeans they will capitulate because native Brits just won't do these kind of jobs. Why do you think the unemployed in poverty won't do these kind of jobs?

It’s a real shame after A, B, C and D your view is indistinguishable from the headlines of the Mail, Express and Sun.

I don’t claim to have meaningful credentials. What I know comes from study, mostly reading of all things politics over ~25 years. Google used well is the best learning resource I’ve ever come across but try to find mostly opinions that contradict your own.