The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[BigAdz]

Still not getting how all these resigning MPs can have "shared values".

None of them are talking about what these values are, but I suspect they are all the same values we all hold dear. Even those from the parties they have left.

I would find it interesting to hear if they are more political type values that have brought them together. Would make you wonder why they got the votes they did in the first place.

Are our two major leaders this power hungry that they just wont listen to their own party in pursuit of THEIR objectives? Feels like it to me, especially TM, blindly ploughing on regardless...

[kukushkin88]

Still not getting how all these resigning MPs can have "shared values".

None of them are talking about what these values are, but I suspect they are all the same values we all hold dear. Even those from the parties they have left.

I would find it interesting to hear if they are more political type values that have brought them together. Would make you wonder why they got the votes they did in the first place.

Are our two major leaders this power hungry that they just wont listen to their own party in pursuit of THEIR objectives? Feels like it to me, especially TM, blindly ploughing on regardless...

You’re over thinking this. The ‘values’ that they share are that they oppose Brexit.

[BigAdz]

Still not getting how all these resigning MPs can have "shared values".

None of them are talking about what these values are, but I suspect they are all the same values we all hold dear. Even those from the parties they have left.

I would find it interesting to hear if they are more political type values that have brought them together. Would make you wonder why they got the votes they did in the first place.

Are our two major leaders this power hungry that they just wont listen to their own party in pursuit of THEIR objectives? Feels like it to me, especially TM, blindly ploughing on regardless...

You’re over thinking this. The ‘values’ that they share are that they oppose Brexit.

I thought the Labour people quit over the Anti Semitism row? Not the same.

[Doobs]

Still not getting how all these resigning MPs can have "shared values".

None of them are talking about what these values are, but I suspect they are all the same values we all hold dear. Even those from the parties they have left.

I would find it interesting to hear if they are more political type values that have brought them together. Would make you wonder why they got the votes they did in the first place.

Are our two major leaders this power hungry that they just wont listen to their own party in pursuit of THEIR objectives? Feels like it to me, especially TM, blindly ploughing on regardless...

You’re over thinking this. The ‘values’ that they share are that they oppose Brexit.

I thought the Labour people quit over the Anti Semitism row? Not the same.

It is a mix isn't it.   There has always been one-nation tories, and "Blairite" labour MPs.   Add in Brexit and the abuse some of these people have suffered and you have people who can find some common values.   I think Heidi Allen has opposed some of the welfare reforns for instance and there were roughly 200 MPs who had no confidence in Jeremy Corbyn.

I think this argument about people been disenfranchised by MPs leaving the party is pretty meaningless.   There are tens of thousands in each constutuency who don't vote for their MP, and many who vote will be centrist/swing voters/brexiteers or remainers.

Think it will be interesting if they do mushroom into a much bigger party

[Sheriff Fatman]

Saw this mentioned on twitter - great headline given the reason for the suspension

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/derek-hatton-suspended-labour-party-15861929

I saw one on Twitter which said "You Can Leave You're Hatton"

[RED-DOG]

Saw this mentioned on twitter - great headline given the reason for the suspension

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/derek-hatton-suspended-labour-party-15861929

I saw one on Twitter which said "You Can Leave You're Hatton"

That's great.

Although I would have liked to see this punctuation. "You can leave, you're Hatton."

[Sheriff Fatman]

It is a mix isn't it.   There has always been one-nation tories, and "Blairite" labour MPs.   Add in Brexit and the abuse some of these people have suffered and you have people who can find some common values.   I think Heidi Allen has opposed some of the welfare reforns for instance and there were roughly 200 MPs who had no confidence in Jeremy Corbyn.

I think this argument about people been disenfranchised by MPs leaving the party is pretty meaningless.   There are tens of thousands in each constutuency who don't vote for their MP, and many who vote will be centrist/swing voters/brexiteers or remainers.

Think it will be interesting if they do mushroom into a much bigger party

This is why I think it's a smart move that they haven't set up a new party as yet, and are sitting as a coalition of Independent MPs at the moment.

It's much easier for me to identify with the ex-Labour members, as I'm effectively seeking a Centre-Left alternative to the Communist Party formerly known as Labour.  It's far more difficult for me to align with ex-Tories, as someone who fundamentally would never vote Tory under any circumstances.  At some point in their lives, each of them looked at something that the Tories were doing and decided that they wanted to be a part of it, which is impossible for me to comprehend.

Consequently, I can identify with this broad coalition far more easily at present than if they'd somehow been shoe-horned into a Centrist party that tries to cover all bases.

I'm intrigued too as to how the Lib Dems ultimately respond to this, as they're sitting in that political ground but mired in the fact that they can't shake the tuition fees saga with the electorate.  Probably the most impressive thing that the Tories have ever done was to get people to blame the Lib Dems for tuition fees whilst remaining largely untouched by it.  Potentially, TIG and whatever party ultimately arises from it, is an opportunity for a rebranding exercise that gets the Lib Dem movement away from that toxicity.

[Sheriff Fatman]

Saw this mentioned on twitter - great headline given the reason for the suspension

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/derek-hatton-suspended-labour-party-15861929

I saw one on Twitter which said "You Can Leave You're Hatton"

That's great.

Although I would have liked to see this punctuation. "You can leave, you're Hatton."

It quite possibly did.  I may not have typed it exactly as stated.

[RED-DOG]

At some point in their lives, each of them looked at something that the Tories were doing and decided that they wanted to be a part of it, which is impossible for me to comprehend.

I'm currently apolitical Curtis, so I have no axe to grind, but are you saying that the Tories have never done anything good?

[Sheriff Fatman]

At some point in their lives, each of them looked at something that the Tories were doing and decided that they wanted to be a part of it, which is impossible for me to comprehend.

I'm currently apolitical Curtis, so I have no axe to grind, but are you saying that the Tories have never done anything good?

I'm sure you might be able to find an individual example somewhere, but their policies have caused untold damage to my family, my community and have made things harder for me personally, particularly in my younger days.  Fundamentally, they're morally corrupt, as they systematically improve the position of the richest at the expense of the poorest in society, which is just wrong no matter how you look at it.  Whatever income tax reductions I've subsequently benefitted from need to be weighed up against the stealth tax increases they've imposed alongside them, particularly VAT.  However, I'd rather pay a fair amount of tax to give everyone reasonable access to an accessible welfare state, should they need it. 

For context, this is the perspective of the son of a Barnsley coal-miner who went to university just as they finished withdrawing student grants, replacing them with student loans and introducing the Poll Tax (which students had to pay, albeit at a reduced rate).  The Poll Tax doubled the amount my parents had to pay each year, just as the last of the coal mines in the area were being shut down and entire communities destroyed.  Brassed Off was filmed 3 miles from where I grew up and is by no means an exaggeration of the state those areas were left in by Thatcher.  By the time I'd finished A-levels and started university I'd already sworn that I would never vote for them in my lifetime.

I've also been impacted by them reducing the rights of employees, to the extent that you now have to be employed for 2 years before you have any basic employment rights at all.  They've undermined the NHS to the point of collapse (my wife is a nurse, so feels the impact of this directly).

So yes, on reflection, whatever 'good' the Tories might have done has been massively outweighed by the damage they've inflicted, as far as my immediate family is concerned.

However, the biggest frustration I have with politics at the moment is that I can't identify at all with the Labour Party, and its shift towards the far left.  From the description above I should be a poster child of who they need to connect with to win elections, yet their activist body seems to view me, as someone they'd class as a "Red Tory", being a greater enemy to them than the actual Tories they supposedly want to defeat.

[MintTrav]

The Hatton tweet seems fairly innocuous "Jewish people with any sense of humanity need to start speaking out publicly against the ruthless murdering being carried out by Israel."

Isn't that pretty close to what most people think?

[RED-DOG]

At some point in their lives, each of them looked at something that the Tories were doing and decided that they wanted to be a part of it, which is impossible for me to comprehend.

I'm currently apolitical Curtis, so I have no axe to grind, but are you saying that the Tories have never done anything good?

I'm sure you might be able to find an individual example somewhere, but their policies have caused untold damage to my family, my community and have made things harder for me personally, particularly in my younger days.  Fundamentally, they're morally corrupt, as they systematically improve the position of the richest at the expense of the poorest in society, which is just wrong no matter how you look at it.  Whatever income tax reductions I've subsequently benefitted from need to be weighed up against the stealth tax increases they've imposed alongside them, particularly VAT.  However, I'd rather pay a fair amount of tax to give everyone reasonable access to an accessible welfare state, should they need it. 

For context, this is the perspective of the son of a Barnsley coal-miner who went to university just as they finished withdrawing student grants, replacing them with student loans and introducing the Poll Tax (which students had to pay, albeit at a reduced rate).  The Poll Tax doubled the amount my parents had to pay each year, just as the last of the coal mines in the area were being shut down and entire communities destroyed.  Brassed Off was filmed 3 miles from where I grew up and is by no means an exaggeration of the state those areas were left in by Thatcher.  By the time I'd finished A-levels and started university I'd already sworn that I would never vote for them in my lifetime.

I've also been impacted by them reducing the rights of employees, to the extent that you now have to be employed for 2 years before you have any basic employment rights at all.  They've undermined the NHS to the point of collapse (my wife is a nurse, so feels the impact of this directly).

So yes, on reflection, whatever 'good' the Tories might have done has been massively outweighed by the damage they've inflicted, as far as my immediate family is concerned.

However, the biggest frustration I have with politics at the moment is that I can't identify at all with the Labour Party, and its shift towards the far left.  From the description above I should be a poster child of who they need to connect with to win elections, yet their activist body seems to view me, as someone they'd class as a "Red Tory", being a greater enemy to them than the actual Tories they supposedly want to defeat.

Cheers for the detailed answer Curtis.

Surely both parties will have new leadership soon.

[BigAdz]

It is a mix isn't it.   There has always been one-nation tories, and "Blairite" labour MPs.   Add in Brexit and the abuse some of these people have suffered and you have people who can find some common values.   I think Heidi Allen has opposed some of the welfare reforns for instance and there were roughly 200 MPs who had no confidence in Jeremy Corbyn.

I think this argument about people been disenfranchised by MPs leaving the party is pretty meaningless.   There are tens of thousands in each constutuency who don't vote for their MP, and many who vote will be centrist/swing voters/brexiteers or remainers.

Think it will be interesting if they do mushroom into a much bigger party

This is why I think it's a smart move that they haven't set up a new party as yet, and are sitting as a coalition of Independent MPs at the moment.

It's much easier for me to identify with the ex-Labour members, as I'm effectively seeking a Centre-Left alternative to the Communist Party formerly known as Labour.  It's far more difficult for me to align with ex-Tories, as someone who fundamentally would never vote Tory under any circumstances.  At some point in their lives, each of them looked at something that the Tories were doing and decided that they wanted to be a part of it, which is impossible for me to comprehend.

Consequently, I can identify with this broad coalition far more easily at present than if they'd somehow been shoe-horned into a Centrist party that tries to cover all bases.

I'm intrigued too as to how the Lib Dems ultimately respond to this, as they're sitting in that political ground but mired in the fact that they can't shake the tuition fees saga with the electorate.  Probably the most impressive thing that the Tories have ever done was to get people to blame the Lib Dems for tuition fees whilst remaining largely untouched by it.  Potentially, TIG and whatever party ultimately arises from it, is an opportunity for a rebranding exercise that gets the Lib Dem movement away from that toxicity.

I'm sure you don't give a shit and your reply will be along those lines, but I dont see how anyone can say they will never vote for X party ever. What if all you hold dear aligns to what they represent or vice versa? Especially in a period like we are now where no one knows what the f is going on

[nirvana]

The Hatton tweet seems fairly innocuous "Jewish people with any sense of humanity need to start speaking out publicly against the ruthless murdering being carried out by Israel."

Isn't that pretty close to what most people think?

It might be close to what most people think but it's akin to saying "Muslims with any sense of humanity need to start speaking out publicly against the ruthless murdering being carried out by Isis/Saudi Arabia/Iraq/Iran etc".

Most people would also agree with this second statement but many would protest it as Islamophobic - not least, most of the Labour left

[Doobs]

The Hatton tweet seems fairly innocuous "Jewish people with any sense of humanity need to start speaking out publicly against the ruthless murdering being carried out by Israel."

Isn't that pretty close to what most people think?

Suspect they'd have to throw out half their members if this was the bar.  So many of them have greeted each complaint of anti-semitism with fairly prolific attacks on Israel.