The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[kukushkin88]

I am sat here watching a news item where some idiot has just gone up to a girl in a park listening to music, that he has never met, let alone offended him etc etc. She dies.

Tell me, not that you will change my mind, why should that waste of skin live himself?

In order to fully understand something you need to actively try and see all perspectives, especially those that contradict/oppose/conflict with your own. You also need to see all aspects, so basing your view on the tragic event of the girl’s death won’t lead to a well informed, well rounded opinion.

The discussion doesn’t need to be a confrontation. Imagine we’re on the same side, all we’re trying to do is better our own and each other’s understanding. (Announcing that you won’t change your mind before we start, is a perfect example of my point about what the problem is though.)

I guess an OK start point would be to ask...is there any evidence that the death penalty acts as a deterrent?

[Woodsey]

I am sat here watching a news item where some idiot has just gone up to a girl in a park listening to music, that he has never met, let alone offended him etc etc. She dies.

Tell me, not that you will change my mind, why should that waste of skin live himself?

In order to fully understand something you need to actively try and see all perspectives, especially those that contradict/oppose/conflict with your own. You also need to see all aspects, so basing your view on the tragic event of the girl’s death won’t lead to a well informed, well rounded opinion.

The discussion doesn’t need to be a confrontation. Imagine we’re on the same side, all we’re trying to do is better our own and each other’s understanding. (Announcing that you won’t change your mind before we start, is a perfect example of my point about what the problem is though.)

I guess an OK start point would be to ask...is there any evidence that the death penalty acts as a deterrent?

Who cares, removing filth from the street where they can’t do more harm and don’t cost us a penny more is a good thing.....

[BigAdz]

I am sat here watching a news item where some idiot has just gone up to a girl in a park listening to music, that he has never met, let alone offended him etc etc. She dies.

Tell me, not that you will change my mind, why should that waste of skin live himself?

In order to fully understand something you need to actively try and see all perspectives, especially those that contradict/oppose/conflict with your own. You also need to see all aspects, so basing your view on the tragic event of the girl’s death won’t lead to a well informed, well rounded opinion.

The discussion doesn’t need to be a confrontation. Imagine we’re on the same side, all we’re trying to do is better our own and each other’s understanding. (Announcing that you won’t change your mind before we start, is a perfect example of my point about what the problem is though.)

I guess an OK start point would be to ask...is there any evidence that the death penalty acts as a deterrent?

It will to him......


What a load of pompous bullshit.

I need to see the perspectives.

What the actual fuck.

There are no perspectives. He has taken a life. That girl is now dead. No more. No chance to live her life. Her familys life will be ruined.

Why, because of a dare? To join a gang? To fit in?

I see no perspective.

In your world, he goes to prison, gets a nice cell, probably with his mate. TV, food, exercise and a chance to mix with other like inded idiots, while some do gooder spends an hour in a room with him once a week telling him he can improve himself.

PLEASE, don't just tell me I need to see the other side. EXPLAIN TO ME WHY YOU THINK HE SHOULD LIVE AFTER DOING THIS?

[BigAdz]

PS.

Sorry for the derail folks, but the Oracle took us down this route, and he makes me incredibly angry with this total BS.

[Woodsey]

PS.

Sorry for the derail folks, but the Oracle took us down this route, and he makes me incredibly angry with this total BS.

At least you admit it when you’re angry and don’t give it the ‘I’m as calm as calm could be’ bullshit 

[MANTIS01]

Thought you came across as desperate when you made up that sexy girl in the bedroom you were checking

[DungBeetle]

I am sat here watching a news item where some idiot has just gone up to a girl in a park listening to music, that he has never met, let alone offended him etc etc. She dies.

Tell me, not that you will change my mind, why should that waste of skin live himself?

In order to fully understand something you need to actively try and see all perspectives, especially those that contradict/oppose/conflict with your own. You also need to see all aspects, so basing your view on the tragic event of the girl’s death won’t lead to a well informed, well rounded opinion.

The discussion doesn’t need to be a confrontation. Imagine we’re on the same side, all we’re trying to do is better our own and each other’s understanding. (Announcing that you won’t change your mind before we start, is a perfect example of my point about what the problem is though.)

I guess an OK start point would be to ask...is there any evidence that the death penalty acts as a deterrent?

I’m generally against death penalty but when I see incidents like what Adz just mentioned I waiver.  I’m not sure in this instance I care if it is a deterrent.  It’s just good for society morale in this isolated case.   And I don’t need to see if from this murderer’s perspective who just ended a girl’s life for no reason.

[Jon MW]

I am sat here watching a news item where some idiot has just gone up to a girl in a park listening to music, that he has never met, let alone offended him etc etc. She dies.

Tell me, not that you will change my mind, why should that waste of skin live himself?

In order to fully understand something you need to actively try and see all perspectives, especially those that contradict/oppose/conflict with your own. You also need to see all aspects, so basing your view on the tragic event of the girl’s death won’t lead to a well informed, well rounded opinion.

The discussion doesn’t need to be a confrontation. Imagine we’re on the same side, all we’re trying to do is better our own and each other’s understanding. (Announcing that you won’t change your mind before we start, is a perfect example of my point about what the problem is though.)

I guess an OK start point would be to ask...is there any evidence that the death penalty acts as a deterrent?

I’m generally against death penalty but when I see incidents like what Adz just mentioned I waiver.  I’m not sure in this instance I care if it is a deterrent.  It’s just good for society morale in this isolated case.   And I don’t need to see if from this murderer’s perspective who just ended a girl’s life for no reason.

If it was, as suspected, an initiation rite to get in a gang then it is possible to educate the person who did it; get them to realise they were wrong and rehabilitate them to make them a productive member of society.

Our prison and probation system don't really have the money to do this and they don't really have the will to do it either (no matter what the occasional rhetoric might say) - but it should be noted that it's generally considered even more expensive to have a death penalty (because of all the safeguards that need to be put in place to guard against miscarriages of justice).

I don't think cost is the main reason anyone supports the death penalty, but it is often given as a reason - so just pointing out that's likely to be wrong.

[Woodsey]

I am sat here watching a news item where some idiot has just gone up to a girl in a park listening to music, that he has never met, let alone offended him etc etc. She dies.

Tell me, not that you will change my mind, why should that waste of skin live himself?

In order to fully understand something you need to actively try and see all perspectives, especially those that contradict/oppose/conflict with your own. You also need to see all aspects, so basing your view on the tragic event of the girl’s death won’t lead to a well informed, well rounded opinion.

The discussion doesn’t need to be a confrontation. Imagine we’re on the same side, all we’re trying to do is better our own and each other’s understanding. (Announcing that you won’t change your mind before we start, is a perfect example of my point about what the problem is though.)

I guess an OK start point would be to ask...is there any evidence that the death penalty acts as a deterrent?

I’m generally against death penalty but when I see incidents like what Adz just mentioned I waiver.  I’m not sure in this instance I care if it is a deterrent.  It’s just good for society morale in this isolated case.   And I don’t need to see if from this murderer’s perspective who just ended a girl’s life for no reason.

If it was, as suspected, an initiation rite to get in a gang then it is possible to educate the person who did it; get them to realise they were wrong and rehabilitate them to make them a productive member of society.

Our prison and probation system don't really have the money to do this and they don't really have the will to do it either (no matter what the occasional rhetoric might say) - but it should be noted that it's generally considered even more expensive to have a death penalty (because of all the safeguards that need to be put in place to guard against miscarriages of justice).

I don't think cost is the main reason anyone supports the death penalty, but it is often given as a reason - so just pointing out that's likely to be wrong.

Educate, seriously wtf?

They were giving zero fks when they took a life, they don’t deserve any more themselves. Cost? I’ll shoot the fker myself just say the word!

Maybe we need to get some Brazilian or Philipino style death squads on the pay roll to clean out this filth.....

[4KSuited]

Has rehabilitation worked in the Jon Venables case?

What do you think the cumulative cost (yes, financial, but all the other costs too) of his incarceration, rehabilitation, new identity and re-offending/incarceration have been?

Shouldn’t you also consider the impact on the victims? The Bulgers, in this case. I can only imagine the pain; especially in the knowledge that the killers of their son are seemingly being treated as a higher priority than the victims.

No, we can’t advocate executing minors, but a life sentence should mean exactly that.

[teddybloat]

seems to have worked the the robert thompson case.

they were children when they committed that crime.  i'm not surprised venebles remains fucked up. that thompson is a loving father and a productive member of society inspite of his past before he tortured jamie and with what images and guilt he must carry since speaks to the power of treatment as opposed to punishment. if it can work in that case it has a chance of working in just about any.

[BigAdz]

Its all well and good it HAS worked in the occasional instance.

So what?

Why should they get second chances when entire families have had THEIR lives ruined by these actions.

There is a culture whereby these kids KNOW the worst that can happen is jail time, that isn't particularly hard time.

In these instances a the deterent of death probably would reduce knife crime dramatically.

And before the Oracle, who as per has slid off when he can't formulate a reply, says prove it. I clearly can't because until we introduce it there will be no stats.

[Doobs]

Has rehabilitation worked in the Jon Venables case?

What do you think the cumulative cost (yes, financial, but all the other costs too) of his incarceration, rehabilitation, new identity and re-offending/incarceration have been?

Shouldn’t you also consider the impact on the victims? The Bulgers, in this case. I can only imagine the pain; especially in the knowledge that the killers of their son are seemingly being treated as a higher priority than the victims.

No, we can’t advocate executing minors, but a life sentence should mean exactly that.

He was 10 when he did it.   Surely we shouldn't put 10 year olds away for life, no matter how appalled we are by their actions?  And if you are worrying about the cost, then why would you want to increase it by keeping him in for another 60 years.  

Given we don't have enough information on Jon Venables, we don't know enough about the standard of care, or any real idea who got "higher priority".   But if he did get "higher priority", whatever that means, then that is an issue with victim support and not really relevant to sentencing.  

Also if we are advocating Jon Thompson does life, then Robert Thompson does too, and there is no sign he has reoffended?  Surely this is all a bit grey, rehabilitation sometimes works, sometimes it is less succesful.  

On the park stabbing, we really should wait for it to play out in a court, rather than making a lot of assumptions, even if it seems "obvious" what happened from press reports.   We can't advocate hanging until we know the full story.  Just because it is likely the killer was hanging round with his mate doesn't make him a gang member, and black people can suffer from the same mental illnesses white people do, etc.  This isn't to say the gang angle isn't the best hypothesis, just it isn't the only one.

[Pokerpops]

Its all well and good it HAS worked in the occasional instance.

So what?

Why should they get second chances when entire families have had THEIR lives ruined by these actions.

There is a culture whereby these kids KNOW the worst that can happen is jail time, that isn't particularly hard time.

In these instances a the deterent of death probably would reduce knife crime dramatically.

And before the Oracle, who as per has slid off when he can't formulate a reply, says prove it. I clearly can't because until we introduce it there will be no stats.

The US has the death penalty in some states, and not in others.

The link is to statistics which detail the murder rates in states with and without.

https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/deterrence-states-without-death-penalty-have-had-consistently-lower-murder-rates#stateswithvwithout

Americans eh!

[RED-DOG]

Should we consider the fact that the cost of trying to rehabilitate a murderer would buy a lot of things like Cat/MRI scanners, kidney machines etc and save tens, maybe even hundreds of lives.