The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[Pokerpops]

read an interesting article recently arguing that people should be given the option of being flogged. say 1-2 strokes for each year. so you can opt for 6 lashes instead of 3 years in prison.

takes care of the deterrent, takes care of the retribution and doesn't have the dead-weight loss of those years where is someone going from being employed and a otherwise decent member of society to literally having to be kept by the state. reduces impact on families.

if i was convicted of a crime of a couple of years i'd deffo opt for the lash

Google offered a 2011 article reviewing a book by an American academic.

http://content.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2079933,00.html

Offered as a solution to the very real, very large problems within the US Prison system.
It doesn’t appear to have got much traction, even under Trump.

[aaron1867]

I think it's a legit position to support the death penalty out of pure vengeance. It's about the only rational reason for supporting it.

Definitely not against this - the death penalty isn't cheaper and doesn't reduce crime overall; vengeance is a motive I'd respect.

This is my motive when I lean towards it.  I read a story and I want the perpetrator immediately incinerated in front of a joyous crowd.  It’s not just vengeance that is the justification.  It’s also the morale boost society receives from the vengeance.  Can’t put a price on that.

Why do you think society gets a morale boost from killing people?  Individuals may, but it is a stretch to say society does.

I think many people embrace justice for certain dispicable crimes.  I appreciate you likely have more enlightened priorities such as rehabilitation and the sanctimonious discussion thereof.

I don't know what I have done to you, but you need to quit all the personal stuff.  

I really have no idea why you think I don't believe in justice for crimes, when that is exactly what I was arguing for.  And just because people don't believe in the death penalty and vigilantism doesn't mean they are less appalled than others with daytime stabbings in parks, beheadings of innocents or the fate of James Bulger.  

Adz and I have had a few robust discussions over the years, but I like having Adz around here and am sure we still get on fine and I have no plans to "prove my superiority over him".  I am too old for that kind of shit.  Sure we both have good and bad bits about us.

Sorry Doobs, but it doesn’t sit well with me when you try and play victim. You are a poster on here that tries to belittle and patronise folk all the time. So when I see you say “quit the personal stuff” - it’s a joke. You are sly and patronising., and are a reason I’ve stopped posting.

Away from Doobs’ sly digs, all this over the last few pages is a good example of how divided the country is.

[Doobs]

Jodie Chesney murder: Arrest over 17-year-old's stab death

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-47460385

[BigAdz]

I think it's a legit position to support the death penalty out of pure vengeance. It's about the only rational reason for supporting it.

Definitely not against this - the death penalty isn't cheaper and doesn't reduce crime overall; vengeance is a motive I'd respect.

This is my motive when I lean towards it.  I read a story and I want the perpetrator immediately incinerated in front of a joyous crowd.  It’s not just vengeance that is the justification.  It’s also the morale boost society receives from the vengeance.  Can’t put a price on that.

Why do you think society gets a morale boost from killing people?  Individuals may, but it is a stretch to say society does.

Maybe look up the article you posted on Facebook. It may not be reflective of the country, but it's very reflective of what people have commented. Looks about 90%  hanging or death penalty and 10% life is life.

Not one for some new fangled rehab, or. Careful we might have the wrong guy etc.


Ps. Aaron totally out of order. We need the other side of the coin on here, regardless of how people come across. Always had plenty of time for what Doobs has to say, even if I don't agree with it a lot of times. He doesn't resort to name calling and is perfectly reasoned, even if just plain wrong, a lot

[Pokerpops]

I think it's a legit position to support the death penalty out of pure vengeance. It's about the only rational reason for supporting it.

Definitely not against this - the death penalty isn't cheaper and doesn't reduce crime overall; vengeance is a motive I'd respect.

This is my motive when I lean towards it.  I read a story and I want the perpetrator immediately incinerated in front of a joyous crowd.  It’s not just vengeance that is the justification.  It’s also the morale boost society receives from the vengeance.  Can’t put a price on that.

Why do you think society gets a morale boost from killing people?  Individuals may, but it is a stretch to say society does.

Maybe look up the article you posted on Facebook. It may not be reflective of the country, but it's very reflective of what people have commented. Looks about 90%  hanging or death penalty and 10% life is life.

Not one for some new fangled rehab, or. Careful we might have the wrong guy etc.


Ps. Aaron totally out of order. We need the other side of the coin on here, regardless of how people come across. Always had plenty of time for what Doobs has to say, even if I don't agree with it a lot of times. He doesn't resort to name calling and is perfectly reasoned, even if just plain wrong, a lot

You don’t think we need to be careful about executing the wrong guy?

Seems harsh.

Anyway, the last poll I can find suggests that there is a small majority in the general population against the Death Penalty.
Leave voters are apparently 53% in support of it’s return.
Conservative voters are c54%.
I’m sure that there are places where a 90% figure could be reached, especially if the question was linked to the weekend’s events. I’m pretty sure that as an immediate reaction to something happening to my family I would be as fervent as you are.
I hope that after reflection I could have more reasoned thoughts.


#Invalid YouTube Link#

Failed link to the Yes, Prime Minister explanation of survey tactics by Sir Humphrey.

[Karabiner]

We should think more broadly about these things - my views on the death penalty have varied a little over time but I'm opposed to it .

OTOH, I'd be fine with life meaning life at times - in these cases though I think I'd also offer the convicted person the right to choose to be killed instead - might even offer them an incentive to choose that option.

72 virgins?

[BigAdz]

I think it's a legit position to support the death penalty out of pure vengeance. It's about the only rational reason for supporting it.

Definitely not against this - the death penalty isn't cheaper and doesn't reduce crime overall; vengeance is a motive I'd respect.

This is my motive when I lean towards it.  I read a story and I want the perpetrator immediately incinerated in front of a joyous crowd.  It’s not just vengeance that is the justification.  It’s also the morale boost society receives from the vengeance.  Can’t put a price on that.

Why do you think society gets a morale boost from killing people?  Individuals may, but it is a stretch to say society does.

Maybe look up the article you posted on Facebook. It may not be reflective of the country, but it's very reflective of what people have commented. Looks about 90%  hanging or death penalty and 10% life is life.

Not one for some new fangled rehab, or. Careful we might have the wrong guy etc.


Ps. Aaron totally out of order. We need the other side of the coin on here, regardless of how people come across. Always had plenty of time for what Doobs has to say, even if I don't agree with it a lot of times. He doesn't resort to name calling and is perfectly reasoned, even if just plain wrong, a lot

You don’t think we need to be careful about executing the wrong guy?

Seems harsh.

Anyway, the last poll I can find suggests that there is a small majority in the general population against the Death Penalty.
Leave voters are apparently 53% in support of it’s return.
Conservative voters are c54%.
I’m sure that there are places where a 90% figure could be reached, especially if the question was linked to the weekend’s events. I’m pretty sure that as an immediate reaction to something happening to my family I would be as fervent as you are.
I hope that after reflection I could have more reasoned thoughts.


#Invalid YouTube Link#

Failed link to the Yes, Prime Minister explanation of survey tactics by Sir Humphrey.

I never fail to get how often those that don't like what I say always get wrong what I have said. Never once have Mantis or Woodsey ever misinterpreted what I say. Maybe if you lot read things properly you would understand my points better.

Where above have I/Me/Adz said not to be careful about executing the wrong guy??

I said that the comments on Facebook were very much for giving the guy that stabbed the innocent girl the DP..

I have only ever said "ref 4K post i agreed with" that as long as we are sure, ie witness, photo proof etc should they suffer DP. As per this case....

I also never said the majority of people on the comments reflected the entire nation, but it is strange that with 100 plus posts 90% were in favour from the safety of their laptops, and not some survey where they might be made to feel awkward about airing their true feelings.....

[Pokerpops]

I think it's a legit position to support the death penalty out of pure vengeance. It's about the only rational reason for supporting it.

Definitely not against this - the death penalty isn't cheaper and doesn't reduce crime overall; vengeance is a motive I'd respect.

This is my motive when I lean towards it.  I read a story and I want the perpetrator immediately incinerated in front of a joyous crowd.  It’s not just vengeance that is the justification.  It’s also the morale boost society receives from the vengeance.  Can’t put a price on that.

Why do you think society gets a morale boost from killing people?  Individuals may, but it is a stretch to say society does.

Maybe look up the article you posted on Facebook. It may not be reflective of the country, but it's very reflective of what people have commented. Looks about 90%  hanging or death penalty and 10% life is life.

Not one for some new fangled rehab, or. Careful we might have the wrong guy etc.


Ps. Aaron totally out of order. We need the other side of the coin on here, regardless of how people come across. Always had plenty of time for what Doobs has to say, even if I don't agree with it a lot of times. He doesn't resort to name calling and is perfectly reasoned, even if just plain wrong, a lot

You don’t think we need to be careful about executing the wrong guy?

Seems harsh.

Anyway, the last poll I can find suggests that there is a small majority in the general population against the Death Penalty.
Leave voters are apparently 53% in support of it’s return.
Conservative voters are c54%.
I’m sure that there are places where a 90% figure could be reached, especially if the question was linked to the weekend’s events. I’m pretty sure that as an immediate reaction to something happening to my family I would be as fervent as you are.
I hope that after reflection I could have more reasoned thoughts.


#Invalid YouTube Link#

Failed link to the Yes, Prime Minister explanation of survey tactics by Sir Humphrey.

I never fail to get how often those that don't like what I say always get wrong what I have said. Never once have Mantis or Woodsey ever misinterpreted what I say. Maybe if you lot read things properly you would understand my points better.

Where above have I/Me/Adz said not to be careful about executing the wrong guy??

I said that the comments on Facebook were very much for giving the guy that stabbed the innocent girl the DP..

I have only ever said "ref 4K post i agreed with" that as long as we are sure, ie witness, photo proof etc should they suffer DP. As per this case....

I also never said the majority of people on the comments reflected the entire nation, but it is strange that with 100 plus posts 90% were in favour from the safety of their laptops, and not some survey where they might be made to feel awkward about airing their true feelings.....

You’re right, I misinterpreted the line
Not one for some new fangled rehab, or. Careful we might have the wrong guy etc.
As being your view rather than a continuation of the previous paragraph about the response to some Facebook story. As in (I’m) Not one for some new fangled rehab, or. Careful we might have the wrong guy etc.

I didn’t for one moment think that you were of the opinion that the Facebook comments represented the country. But I did think you might be interested in how the country actually thinks when asked the question without it being attached to an issue which heightens the emotions and maybe clouds our thoughts.

Genuine apologies for my misread.

[BigAdz]

No problem.

Most don't resurface until later as it doesn't suit their agenda..

[teddybloat]

but it is strange that with 100 plus posts 90% were in favour from the safety of their laptops, and not some survey where they might be made to feel awkward about airing their true feelings....

well, they are a self selecting group for one.

i'm not familiar with facebook, but it seems like groups are formed by like minded people and posts are shared amongst friends.

that a self-selecting group [the people who feel strongly - or want to signal to their friends that they feel strongly] amongst like minded people [the friendship group they are apart of] have similar views is not surprising.

as to why people not in favour of the death penalty might not chime in. well given that even in this thread words like 'softies' and the notion that not supporting the death penalty can be equated with not caring about the victim's families [even though the family's views on the death penalty differ also] could maybe a reason why some stay out of the debate in the immediate aftermath of a emotive case

[BigAdz]

All valid, and very similar i suspect if the initial posts were pro leniency.

[BigAdz]

A new post on the murder of the girl on FB suggesting the DP has got 32000 likes since yesterday.

Again the comments are one sided.

Whatever poll is being dragged out, I sure don't believe it any more.

[MANTIS01]

With just a few days to go BOE governor Mark Carney now says Brexit would not be the disaster he and others predicted. What a shock. Would’ve been even better if this peach tin-related nonsense wasn’t dished out in the first place fella. People wanna talk about lies then look no further than the furiously back-tracking project fear mongers. Wp you guys. Couldn’t have weakened our negotiating position anymore effectively.

[doubleup]

With just a few days to go BOE governor Mark Carney now says Brexit would not be the disaster he and others predicted. What a shock. Would’ve been even better if this peach tin-related nonsense wasn’t dished out in the first place fella. People wanna talk about lies then look no further than the furiously back-tracking project fear mongers. Wp you guys. Couldn’t have weakened our negotiating position anymore effectively.

People wanna talk about lies then look no further than your posts

[MANTIS01]

I do understand good news is upsetting for po-faced remoaners.

Must be difficult to accept folk aren’t actually going to starve or die of the plague or have their eyes pecked out by crows.