The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[4KSuited]

seems to have worked the the robert thompson case.

they were children when they committed that crime.  i'm not surprised venebles remains fucked up. that thompson is a loving father and a productive member of society inspite of his past before he tortured jamie and with what images and guilt he must carry since speaks to the power of treatment as opposed to punishment. if it can work in that case it has a chance of working in just about any.

I think we have to take it on trust that Thompson has been rehabilitated:

http://www.google.com/amp/s/inews.co.uk/news/uk/james-bulger-killers-jon-venables-robert-thompson-murder-now/amp/

Even if he has, I think this is cold comfort for the Bulgers, for whom life has become a nightmare that will, I suspect, only end when they pass away. As I said in my previous post (it was, of course, conveniently ignored by Doobs), there are plenty of costs other than financial.

[Longines]

I'm not convinced that, on average, killing an innocent person for every 25 to 50 guilty ones is a price worth paying.

Stefan Kiszko et al.

[DungBeetle]

I think it's a legit position to support the death penalty out of pure vengeance. It's about the only rational reason for supporting it.

Definitely not against this - the death penalty isn't cheaper and doesn't reduce crime overall; vengeance is a motive I'd respect.

This is my motive when I lean towards it.  I read a story and I want the perpetrator immediately incinerated in front of a joyous crowd.  It’s not just vengeance that is the justification.  It’s also the morale boost society receives from the vengeance.  Can’t put a price on that.

[teddybloat]

I think we have to take it on trust that Thompson has been rehabilitated:

http://www.google.com/amp/s/inews.co.uk/news/uk/james-bulger-killers-jon-venables-robert-thompson-murder-now/amp/

Even if he has, I think this is cold comfort for the Bulgers, for whom life has become a nightmare that will, I suspect, only end when they pass away. As I said in my previous post (it was, of course, conveniently ignored by Doobs), there are plenty of costs other than financial.

i'd also argue that the thoughts and feelings of victims should play a very small role in sentencing. ideally none, actually

nothing will expiadite the upset they have felt.

bulger is a very special case for a number of reasons, mainly the age of the killers. ten is a very young age, in a lot of countries they would not have even been charged.

i dont see it as a bad outcome that one of the killers has made it out the other side to be able to be in a relationship / job etc.

[DungBeetle]

I think we have to take it on trust that Thompson has been rehabilitated:

http://www.google.com/amp/s/inews.co.uk/news/uk/james-bulger-killers-jon-venables-robert-thompson-murder-now/amp/

Even if he has, I think this is cold comfort for the Bulgers, for whom life has become a nightmare that will, I suspect, only end when they pass away. As I said in my previous post (it was, of course, conveniently ignored by Doobs), there are plenty of costs other than financial.

i'd also argue that the thoughts and feelings of victims should play a very small role in sentencing. ideally none, actually

nothing will expiadite the upset they have felt.

bulger is a very special case for a number of reasons, mainly the age of the killers. ten is a very young age, in a lot of countries they would not have even been charged.

i dont see it as a bad outcome that one of the killers has made it out the other side to be able to be in a relationship / job etc.

I sure am happy to see killers “make it out the other side”.  Gives me a warm glow.

[teddybloat]

again he was ten. and an abused kid himself.

nothing about the case gives me a warm glow.

[DungBeetle]

I don’t have an especially strong view on the death penalty, but I must say when I see posters on here who would rather win an argument with BigAdz than consider things from the victims viewpoint (including their families) I find it pretty repulsive.   All the focus on rehabilitation and creating contributors for society out of people who kill for entertainment or to show off?   I just can’t understand that mindset.  Cost shouldn’t be a consideration in some cases.

[Pokerpops]

I don’t have an especially strong view on the death penalty, but I must say when I see posters on here who would rather win an argument with BigAdz than consider things from the victims viewpoint (including their families) I find it pretty repulsive.   All the focus on rehabilitation and creating contributors for society out of people who kill for entertainment or to show off?   I just can’t understand that mindset.  Cost shouldn’t be a consideration in some cases.

Well, we can all try to see things from the victim or their family’s viewpoint. I’m sure that the immediate thoughts would be toward vengeance, but there are so many examples of forgiveness put in front of us that it is difficult to understand why the BigArz, Little Sodoff G & CC view should be seen as anything other than an outlier in the range of views on the subject.

I can envisage crimes that I would be likely to support a Death Sentence for.
Crimes against the very young; the very old; the vulnerable members of society. Not limited to crimes of murder either.

But still we face the certainty that at some stage the return of the Death Penalty will lead to another Timothy Evans; another Derek Bentley or George Kelly. The Birmingham six and the Guildford four would be dead; as would Stefan Kiszko.

[Doobs]

I think it's a legit position to support the death penalty out of pure vengeance. It's about the only rational reason for supporting it.

Definitely not against this - the death penalty isn't cheaper and doesn't reduce crime overall; vengeance is a motive I'd respect.

This is my motive when I lean towards it.  I read a story and I want the perpetrator immediately incinerated in front of a joyous crowd.  It’s not just vengeance that is the justification.  It’s also the morale boost society receives from the vengeance.  Can’t put a price on that.

Why do you think society gets a morale boost from killing people?  Individuals may, but it is a stretch to say society does.

[teddybloat]

I don’t have an especially strong view on the death penalty, but I must say when I see posters on here who would rather win an argument with BigAdz than consider things from the victims viewpoint (including their families) I find it pretty repulsive.   All the focus on rehabilitation and creating contributors for society out of people who kill for entertainment or to show off?   I just can’t understand that mindset.  Cost shouldn’t be a consideration in some cases.

but which families do you consider?

anthony walker's mother very publicly forgave her son's killer. other victims would want extremely long sentences for much less.

justice should be objective, not subjected to the vagries of how victims feel.

it's why i don't think victim impact statements are a good thing for justice. you could get a very eloquent victim who believes 'x' should be the sentence and a very poor communictor saying 'y'

the outcomes will be different and potentially extremely different depending on the wieght given to those statements. it also introduces the jury / judge's own biases into the mix: is the victim seen as vulnerable, presentable, likeable, arrogant etc etc.

i speak as a victim of a serious crime btw. which according to some might mean my voice has more legitimacy in the debate, innit.

[teddybloat]

Crimes against the very young; the very old; the vulnerable members of society. Not limited to crimes of murder either.

But still we face the certainty that at some stage the return of the Death Penalty will lead to another Timothy Evans; another Derek Bentley or George Kelly. The Birmingham six and the Guildford four would be dead; as would Stefan Kiszko.

here you definitely run into the risk of unintended consequences. if the price for e.g. rape is the price for rape + murder. and the rape victim is the only witness, you can see how you suddenly might find that you satisfy some moral outrage but at the expense of making people less safe.

[kukushkin88]

Thought you came across as desperate when you made up that sexy girl in the bedroom you were checking

Missed this earlier :-).

[kukushkin88]

Good posts Teddy (last two), thanks for the insight.

[Doobs]

I don’t have an especially strong view on the death penalty, but I must say when I see posters on here who would rather win an argument with BigAdz than consider things from the victims viewpoint (including their families) I find it pretty repulsive.   All the focus on rehabilitation and creating contributors for society out of people who kill for entertainment or to show off?   I just can’t understand that mindset.  Cost shouldn’t be a consideration in some cases.

Those people who show compassion for criminals, show no compassion for victims families, but those who want to torch criminals in public show all the compassion for victims families?

Seems like you are finding something repulsive that doesn't make a lot of sense.

[Pokerpops]

Crimes against the very young; the very old; the vulnerable members of society. Not limited to crimes of murder either.

But still we face the certainty that at some stage the return of the Death Penalty will lead to another Timothy Evans; another Derek Bentley or George Kelly. The Birmingham six and the Guildford four would be dead; as would Stefan Kiszko.

here you definitely run into the risk of unintended consequences. if the price for e.g. rape is the price for rape + murder. and the rape victim is the only witness, you can see how you suddenly might find that you satisfy some moral outrage but at the expense of making people less safe.

Good point. I tend to agree with you, and since my general stance is against Capital Punishment it’s pretty easy to do so.

But if ‘Life means Life’ then we get the same issue and I am very much in favour of a lock ‘em up and throw away the key sentence for the more heinous of crimes.