The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[Jon MW]

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I mentioned earlier but what sovereign right can Britain have to the Falklands or Gibraltar?  It is these sorts of attitudes that hold us back.  
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Do you know anything of the history of the Falklands and Gibraltar?

Because Britain's sovereignty is pretty clear. I saw you mentioned it earlier - it wasn't really clear what point you were making (?)

- as an aside, what sovereign right do you think Argentina have over the Falklands?

[Doobs]

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I mentioned earlier but what sovereign right can Britain have to the Falklands or Gibraltar?  It is these sorts of attitudes that hold us back.  
...

Do you know anything of the history of the Falklands and Gibraltar?

Because Britain's sovereignty is pretty clear. I saw you mentioned it earlier - it wasn't really clear what point you were making (?)

- as an aside, what sovereign right do you think Argentina have over the Falklands?

I didn't think the Falklands was that clear.  Weren't there some Argentinians there at some stage between us "discovering" them and us finally setting up there.   It certainly isn't cut and dried anyway.

[Jon MW]

...

I mentioned earlier but what sovereign right can Britain have to the Falklands or Gibraltar?  It is these sorts of attitudes that hold us back.  
...

Do you know anything of the history of the Falklands and Gibraltar?

Because Britain's sovereignty is pretty clear. I saw you mentioned it earlier - it wasn't really clear what point you were making (?)

- as an aside, what sovereign right do you think Argentina have over the Falklands?

I didn't think the Falklands was that clear.  Weren't there some Argentinians there at some stage between us "discovering" them and us finally setting up there.   It certainly isn't cut and dried anyway.

"Discover" is almost always a misnomer - but the Falklands weren't inhabited when Europeans claimed them.

Every fact anyone writes obviously has the inherent disclaimer - unless anyone can discover a reliable source to suggest otherwise - but in this case it wouldn't be particularly relevant anyway. The concept of Argentina as a nation state only arose in the 18th century; over 100 years after England and Spain had planted their flags in the Falklands. If any South Americans travelled there before that time it would be like Norway claiming sovereignty over Canada because Vikings sailed there in the Dark Ages.

(AFAIK) the strongest claim Argentina has is that the islands were unpopulated at some point in the 19th century so Argentina sent some people over to say, "this is ours now" (Britain sent some stronger people over to say, "no it isn't )

EDIT: that might be the bit you were talking about - Britain (and Spain) had populations on their before that point which were then removed. Both Britain and Spain would have had to have had renounced their claim to the islands to make the Argentinian claims have any legal basis (and neither had at the point Argentina claimed it).

[MintTrav]

Did Britain discover Gibraltar too, Jon?

[Jon MW]

Did Britain discover Gibraltar too, Jon?

Different type of claim - nobody saying it's the same.

I didn't know so much about that before hand so I looked it up. It was interesting that (probably not surprisingly) the UK aren't that fussed if Spain do have some control over it - the sticking point seems to be that virtually none of the Gibraltans want that. I think the consensus is that the population themselves have the final say isn't it?

[DungBeetle]

The Falklands/Gibraltar issues don't really trouble me much either way to be honest and I wouldn't be fussed if we gave them both away. 

However the wishes of the people who live there is an interesting point.  When I hear people from the Left talk about Falklands (for example), the wishes of the islanders generally seem to be a very long way down the list of priorities.  The appeasement of Argentina always seems to the highest concern.

Why is this?  Shouldn't the wishes of people who live there be pretty important when we decide what to do?

[MintTrav]

Did Britain discover Gibraltar too, Jon?

Different type of claim - nobody saying it's the same.

I didn't know so much about that before hand so I looked it up. It was interesting that (probably not surprisingly) the UK aren't that fussed if Spain do have some control over it - the sticking point seems to be that virtually none of the Gibraltans want that. I think the consensus is that the population themselves have the final say isn't it?

Don't think it should be. Then you get situations like Gib and the Falklands, where a country plants its own people in and then asks them which country they want to belong to.

I spent a weekend in Gibraltar a few years ago. Has to be one of the most bizarre places I have been. As you would expect, they are ultra-nationalist towards Britain.

[Jon MW]

Did Britain discover Gibraltar too, Jon?

Different type of claim - nobody saying it's the same.

I didn't know so much about that before hand so I looked it up. It was interesting that (probably not surprisingly) the UK aren't that fussed if Spain do have some control over it - the sticking point seems to be that virtually none of the Gibraltans want that. I think the consensus is that the population themselves have the final say isn't it?

Don't think it should be. Then you get situations like Gib and the Falklands, where a country plants its own people in and then asks them which country they want to belong to.

I spent a weekend in Gibraltar a few years ago. Has to be one of the most bizarre places I have been. As you would expect, they are ultra-nationalist towards Britain.

As I suggested Gibraltar is different to the Falklands - the Falklands were uninhabited.

In general I agree though - in particular if a country claims possession of anywhere through right of conquest then I think that it's a prime target for that sovereignty being reversed - or at least amended (to get over the problem of having to relocate thousands of people).

But it's definitely the general consensus now that you can't 'fix' a past mistake without the consensus of the people who live there now - no matter how that circumstance came to pass.

[AndrewT]

Did Britain discover Gibraltar too, Jon?

Different type of claim - nobody saying it's the same.

I didn't know so much about that before hand so I looked it up. It was interesting that (probably not surprisingly) the UK aren't that fussed if Spain do have some control over it - the sticking point seems to be that virtually none of the Gibraltans want that. I think the consensus is that the population themselves have the final say isn't it?

Don't think it should be. Then you get situations like Gib and the Falklands, where a country plants its own people in and then asks them which country they want to belong to.

I spent a weekend in Gibraltar a few years ago. Has to be one of the most bizarre places I have been. As you would expect, they are ultra-nationalist towards Britain.

Obv similar to the Orangemen in N Ireland - prancing up and down the street in bowler hats waving Union Jacks in a way that you never see on the mainland outside of those clowns that camp outside St Mary's Hospital whenever Princess Kate has a baby.

[Jon MW]

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I spent a weekend in Gibraltar a few years ago. Has to be one of the most bizarre places I have been. As you would expect, they are ultra-nationalist towards Britain.

As an aside - it seems that's partly Spains fault - they cut off the borders; if they'd kept them opened and encouraged a cultural exchange you'd have thought they'd have a lot friendlier population to deal with.

[DaveShoelace]

I spent a weekend in Gibraltar a few years ago. Has to be one of the most bizarre places I have been. As you would expect, they are ultra-nationalist towards Britain.

This.

Really weird place, it's like Spain, but with the biggest Morrisons slap bang in the middle you've ever seen.

And yes, they are more British (In the Bulldog and pictures of the Queen sense) than anyone in actual Britain.

[RED-DOG]

I've seen or heard no mention of UKIP for ages. Have they gone?

[DaveShoelace]

I've seen or heard no mention of UKIP for ages. Have they gone?

Good point. Probably knocked them for six a bit that they managed to get so many votes yet so few seats.

Also they were the political 'boogyman' before the election, and I guess it's Corbyn now (Before we start a debate, I mean in terms of getting sensationalist type press, not because they are similar politically).

Reckon we'll hear from them a bit more when the whole breexit thing kicks up a notch.

[DaveShoelace]

Saw a very emotionally charged debate yesterday on the telly which surprised me just how angry it got, so I thought I'd make it my:

Question of the day:

Is it 'wrong' for a couple who are currently unemployed, on benefits and with no immediate job opportunities to decide to knowingly get pregnant and have a child with these future prospects?

[Woodsey]

Saw a very emotionally charged debate yesterday on the telly which surprised me just how angry it got, so I thought I'd make it my:

Question of the day:

Is it 'wrong' for a couple who are currently unemployed, on benefits and with no immediate job opportunities to decide to knowingly get pregnant and have a child with these future prospects?

Up to them really, but I find it hard to believe any responsible person would want to, I know for a fact I wouldn't if I was in that spot...