The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[BigAdz]

Not sure what I think of this voting ourselves out of power scenario?

What exactly is it they hope to gain by effectively voting to force a general election?

If their party wins, surely that is still a mandate for Boris/whoever to do what they like, and they as individuals have committed political hari kari.

If their party loses, are they hoping the new govt do want they would want, in which case why not just join them(simplistic, I know, but that's how I roll)? It's not unusual at the mo!

None of our wise sages managed to answer this, or just ignored it.

Again, I ask, with an ever decreasing hold on power, what are Tories trying to accomplish by quitting and undermining their party at every opportunity? Is staying in Europe better to them than being in power? Or are they so arrogant and stupid they think they can do both?

[TightEnd]

Not sure what I think of this voting ourselves out of power scenario?

What exactly is it they hope to gain by effectively voting to force a general election?

If their party wins, surely that is still a mandate for Boris/whoever to do what they like, and they as individuals have committed political hari kari.

If their party loses, are they hoping the new govt do want they would want, in which case why not just join them(simplistic, I know, but that's how I roll)? It's not unusual at the mo!

None of our wise sages managed to answer this, or just ignored it.

Again, I ask, with an ever decreasing hold on power, what are Tories trying to accomplish by quitting and undermining their party at every opportunity? Is staying in Europe better to them than being in power? Or are they so arrogant and stupid they think they can do both?

The principle. As many have said, the opposition to no deal and prorogation is more important than being in government. Its not trying to remain as such. Its no deal.

Really for some labelled as remainers, the principle now is that they are no "no dealers" more than remainers. many voted for the deal to leave

The counterpoint, as mentioned on here at the weekend in the IDS quote, is in doing so they increase the risk of Corbyn in government

[TightEnd]

you Swinson you lose some.


by the by

Now every other major party, however briefly, has had a female leader, save Labour:

Tories: Margaret Thatcher, 1975
Plaid: Leanne Wood, 2012
SNP: Nicola Sturgeon, 2014
DUP: Arlene Foster, 2015
UKIP: Diane James, 2016
SF: Michelle O’Neill, 2017
Libs: Jo Swinson, 2019

Lab: N/A

[StuartHopkin]

you Swinson you lose some.


by the by

Now every other major party, however briefly, has had a female leader, save Labour:

Tories: Margaret Thatcher, 1975
Plaid: Leanne Wood, 2012
SNP: Nicola Sturgeon, 2014
DUP: Arlene Foster, 2015
UKIP: Diane James, 2016
SF: Michelle O’Neill, 2017
Libs: Jo Swinson, 2019

Lab: N/A

Diane is ready and waiting!

[Marky147]

you Swinson you lose some.


by the by

Now every other major party, however briefly, has had a female leader, save Labour:

Tories: Margaret Thatcher, 1975
Plaid: Leanne Wood, 2012
SNP: Nicola Sturgeon, 2014
DUP: Arlene Foster, 2015
UKIP: Diane James, 2016
SF: Michelle O’Neill, 2017
Libs: Jo Swinson, 2019

Lab: N/A

Diane is ready and waiting!

[TightEnd]

Not sure what I think of this voting ourselves out of power scenario?

What exactly is it they hope to gain by effectively voting to force a general election?

If their party wins, surely that is still a mandate for Boris/whoever to do what they like, and they as individuals have committed political hari kari.

If their party loses, are they hoping the new govt do want they would want, in which case why not just join them(simplistic, I know, but that's how I roll)? It's not unusual at the mo!

None of our wise sages managed to answer this, or just ignored it.

Again, I ask, with an ever decreasing hold on power, what are Tories trying to accomplish by quitting and undermining their party at every opportunity? Is staying in Europe better to them than being in power? Or are they so arrogant and stupid they think they can do both?

The principle. As many have said, the opposition to no deal and prorogation is more important than being in government. Its not trying to remain as such. Its no deal.

Really for some labelled as remainers, the principle now is that they are no "no dealers" more than remainers. many voted for the deal to leave

The counterpoint, as mentioned on here at the weekend in the IDS quote, is in doing so they increase the risk of Corbyn in government

I might add, is it really so different from the ERG undermining May, Corbyn trying to undermine New Labour 20 years ago? Centrists trying to undermine Corbyn? Howe and Lawson v Thatcher on Europe a generation ago?

All much the same sort of thing. Principles, rather than arrogance and stupidity.

Parliamentary politics, in terms of the two major parties, is broadly split and deal/no deal and before that leave/remain are major fault lines that run down both of them

The result of that is 4 parties on or around 20-25% in opinion polls and maybe a logjam that carries on after another hung parliament? (with Prime Minister Jo Swinson. ok that part is a bit far fetched)

[RickBFA]

Not sure what I think of this voting ourselves out of power scenario?

What exactly is it they hope to gain by effectively voting to force a general election?

If their party wins, surely that is still a mandate for Boris/whoever to do what they like, and they as individuals have committed political hari kari.

If their party loses, are they hoping the new govt do want they would want, in which case why not just join them(simplistic, I know, but that's how I roll)? It's not unusual at the mo!

None of our wise sages managed to answer this, or just ignored it.

Again, I ask, with an ever decreasing hold on power, what are Tories trying to accomplish by quitting and undermining their party at every opportunity? Is staying in Europe better to them than being in power? Or are they so arrogant and stupid they think they can do both?

The principle. As many have said, the opposition to no deal and prorogation is more important than being in government. Its not trying to remain as such. Its no deal.

Really for some labelled as remainers, the principle now is that they are no "no dealers" more than remainers. many voted for the deal to leave

The counterpoint, as mentioned on here at the weekend in the IDS quote, is in doing so they increase the risk of Corbyn in government

I might add, is it really so different from the ERG undermining May, Corbyn trying to undermine New Labour 20 years ago? Centrists trying to undermine Corbyn? Howe and Lawson v Thatcher on Europe a generation ago?

All much the same sort of thing. Principles, rather than arrogance and stupidity.

Parliamentary politics, in terms of the two major parties, is broadly split and deal/no deal and before that leave/remain are major fault lines that run down both of them

The result of that is 4 parties on or around 20-25% in opinion polls and maybe a logjam that carries on after another hung parliament? (with Prime Minister Jo Swinson. ok that part is a bit far fetched)

Seems logical that if Boris can bring in an extra chunk of Brexit party voters over, given the wafer thin majority and the shambolic Labour leadership, he may gamble on a general election.

Not sure how the timing would work but if he thinks he can get 40/50/60 majority it’s got to look very tempting?

[TightEnd]

Not sure what I think of this voting ourselves out of power scenario?

What exactly is it they hope to gain by effectively voting to force a general election?

If their party wins, surely that is still a mandate for Boris/whoever to do what they like, and they as individuals have committed political hari kari.

If their party loses, are they hoping the new govt do want they would want, in which case why not just join them(simplistic, I know, but that's how I roll)? It's not unusual at the mo!

None of our wise sages managed to answer this, or just ignored it.

Again, I ask, with an ever decreasing hold on power, what are Tories trying to accomplish by quitting and undermining their party at every opportunity? Is staying in Europe better to them than being in power? Or are they so arrogant and stupid they think they can do both?

The principle. As many have said, the opposition to no deal and prorogation is more important than being in government. Its not trying to remain as such. Its no deal.

Really for some labelled as remainers, the principle now is that they are no "no dealers" more than remainers. many voted for the deal to leave

The counterpoint, as mentioned on here at the weekend in the IDS quote, is in doing so they increase the risk of Corbyn in government

I might add, is it really so different from the ERG undermining May, Corbyn trying to undermine New Labour 20 years ago? Centrists trying to undermine Corbyn? Howe and Lawson v Thatcher on Europe a generation ago?

All much the same sort of thing. Principles, rather than arrogance and stupidity.

Parliamentary politics, in terms of the two major parties, is broadly split and deal/no deal and before that leave/remain are major fault lines that run down both of them

The result of that is 4 parties on or around 20-25% in opinion polls and maybe a logjam that carries on after another hung parliament? (with Prime Minister Jo Swinson. ok that part is a bit far fetched)

Seems logical that if Boris can bring in an extra chunk of Brexit party voters over, given the wafer thin majority and the shambolic Labour leadership, he may gamble on a general election.

Not sure how the timing would work but if he thinks he can get 40/50/60 majority it’s got to look very tempting?

Yes as we have been talking about on here. Do it on a promise and try to break the parliamentary logjam via getting a majority

[TightEnd]

Oh dear, second "British" tanker heading towards Iran.  This is all very worrying.

Where are all our European Allies?

Answer.


BREAKING: Hunt says European-led maritime protection mission will be established to ensure safe passage of commercial ships in Gulf in wake of Iran tanker seizure

----

These Europeans seem really helpful and strategically important , also pretty culturally alligned. Oh well, that is all.

[doubleup]

Oh dear, second "British" tanker heading towards Iran.  This is all very worrying.

Where are all our European Allies?

The Foreign Secretary says there will be a European-led maritime security mission focused on protecting shipping in the Strait of Hormuz.

https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/jeremy-hunt-maritime-protection-mission-uk-flagged-tanker-162100845.html

UK must look after its own ships in the Gulf, says Pompeo

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jul/22/uk-must-look-after-its-own-ships-in-the-gulf-says-pompeo

[nirvana]

Oh dear, second "British" tanker heading towards Iran.  This is all very worrying.

Where are all our European Allies?

Answer.


BREAKING: Hunt says European-led maritime protection mission will be established to ensure safe passage of commercial ships in Gulf in wake of Iran tanker seizure

----

These Europeans seem really helpful and strategically important , also pretty culturally alligned. Oh well, that is all.

This is a bit like congratulating an absent father on occasionally seeing his kids. Plus the Europeans and us have been aligned on Iran (as the US headed off in a slightly direction) so it's not that big a moment, Plus as remainers like to point out on so many issues, we haven't left yet. There are more pluses but I'm only writing for japes even though I agree it's good we work together on some things, just as we will whatever the future shape of the relationship is.

[BigAdz]

Oh dear, second "British" tanker heading towards Iran.  This is all very worrying.

Where are all our European Allies?

Answer.


BREAKING: Hunt says European-led maritime protection mission will be established to ensure safe passage of commercial ships in Gulf in wake of Iran tanker seizure

----

These Europeans seem really helpful and strategically important , also pretty culturally alligned. Oh well, that is all.

This is a bit like congratulating an absent father on occasionally seeing his kids. Plus the Europeans and us have been aligned on Iran (as the US headed off in a slightly direction) so it's not that big a moment, Plus as remainers like to point out on so many issues, we haven't left yet. There are more pluses but I'm only writing for japes even though I agree it's good we work together on some things, just as we will whatever the future shape of the relationship is.

Isn't that the grown up and sensible thing to do? Just because we want to steer our own ship, doesn't mean we have suddenly developed different values etc.

Pretty poor of any civilised nation to ditch us in our hour of need if the cause is still just.

[aaron1867]

Oh dear, second "British" tanker heading towards Iran.  This is all very worrying.

Where are all our European Allies?

The grown up and sensible thing would to not leave the E.U.

We are going to become a small island that will be trying our hardest to get deals we already had in the world. Not to mention this stupid no deal thing that keeps getting pushed, its madness that people want no deal.

Answer.


BREAKING: Hunt says European-led maritime protection mission will be established to ensure safe passage of commercial ships in Gulf in wake of Iran tanker seizure

----

These Europeans seem really helpful and strategically important , also pretty culturally alligned. Oh well, that is all.

This is a bit like congratulating an absent father on occasionally seeing his kids. Plus the Europeans and us have been aligned on Iran (as the US headed off in a slightly direction) so it's not that big a moment, Plus as remainers like to point out on so many issues, we haven't left yet. There are more pluses but I'm only writing for japes even though I agree it's good we work together on some things, just as we will whatever the future shape of the relationship is.

Isn't that the grown up and sensible thing to do? Just because we want to steer our own ship, doesn't mean we have suddenly developed different values etc.

Pretty poor of any civilised nation to ditch us in our hour of need if the cause is still just.

The sensible thing would be to stay in the E.U. - We will not be trying to get trade deals we already had.

[nirvana]

Oh dear, second "British" tanker heading towards Iran.  This is all very worrying.

Where are all our European Allies?

Answer.


BREAKING: Hunt says European-led maritime protection mission will be established to ensure safe passage of commercial ships in Gulf in wake of Iran tanker seizure

----

These Europeans seem really helpful and strategically important , also pretty culturally alligned. Oh well, that is all.

This is a bit like congratulating an absent father on occasionally seeing his kids. Plus the Europeans and us have been aligned on Iran (as the US headed off in a slightly direction) so it's not that big a moment, Plus as remainers like to point out on so many issues, we haven't left yet. There are more pluses but I'm only writing for japes even though I agree it's good we work together on some things, just as we will whatever the future shape of the relationship is.

Isn't that the grown up and sensible thing to do? Just because we want to steer our own ship, doesn't mean we have suddenly developed different values etc.

Pretty poor of any civilised nation to ditch us in our hour of need if the cause is still just.

You'd think so.. I think there's a tiny number of Tories that are so anti Europe that they'd prefer we worked only with the US on this rather than more widely.

On the other hand, we should face the fact that the larger European countries (perhaps excepting France) hide behind US and UK defence spending for the notional protection of the free world.

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=File:Total_general_government_expenditure_on_defence,_2017_(%25_of_GDP).png  

Definitely one of the sources of friction for the leaders of the Brexit movement in the past.

[aaron1867]

Twitter is full of speculation about Boris & trying to link the race for no.10 with the Lib Dem race. He’s still going to get in even if turnout is lower.

Also seen that he will be making a speech to HOC at 10.30 on Thursday, some political analysts are expecting something huge. A lot of speculation what that could be.

General election - surely not?
Suspending MP holiday
Plea to MPs and E.U.

Also stuff I read that if he loses the Alan Duncan vote (is that happening?) that May could still end up being in charge.

Twitter if not anything, is dramatic