The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[doubleup]

Corporation tax is a strange beast.  As far as small businesses are concerned, there are a huge range of different methods for taking money from companies with different tax implications so the rate really doesn't make a huge difference.  A large amount of the profits of these companies go to individuals who pay various taxes.

The big problem is larger companies who employ all sorts of international ploys to avoid paying their fair share.  It is nonsense imo to suggest that these companies base their investment strategy largely on corporation tax rates.  They make their decisions on profitability, then look at the best way to minimise taxes on these profits eg pretending that their business is elsewhere or creating fantasy costs.  Because the dividends of these businesses are largely paid to offshore interests, this results in them benefiting from education, infrastructure etc but not paying anything for it.

The solution is not a race to the bottom on tax rates but aggressive enforcement of the present rates by making it clear that profits made in this country will be subject to tax and severely limiting the options to mitigate that tax.  Perhaps making companies liable for the costs of tax investigations when the size of business activity does not equate with the profits.  Of course the chance of this happening is remote while people believe various fantasies about tax rates and investment.

 

[kukushkin88]

The use of "left wing trait" as a criticism is flawed as well. Nirvana still the best poster on blonde. (unless Trigger is tipping horses o/c)

[DungBeetle]

The use of "left wing trait" as a criticism is flawed as well. Nirvana still the best poster on blonde. (unless Trigger is tipping horses o/c)

It's not a criticism it's an observation

[DungBeetle]

Corporation tax is a strange beast.  As far as small businesses are concerned, there are a huge range of different methods for taking money from companies with different tax implications so the rate really doesn't make a huge difference.  A large amount of the profits of these companies go to individuals who pay various taxes.

The big problem is larger companies who employ all sorts of international ploys to avoid paying their fair share.  It is nonsense imo to suggest that these companies base their investment strategy largely on corporation tax rates.  They make their decisions on profitability, then look at the best way to minimise taxes on these profits eg pretending that their business is elsewhere or creating fantasy costs.  Because the dividends of these businesses are largely paid to offshore interests, this results in them benefiting from education, infrastructure etc but not paying anything for it.

The solution is not a race to the bottom on tax rates but aggressive enforcement of the present rates by making it clear that profits made in this country will be subject to tax and severely limiting the options to mitigate that tax.  Perhaps making companies liable for the costs of tax investigations when the size of business activity does not equate with the profits.  Of course the chance of this happening is remote while people believe various fantasies about tax rates and investment.

 

You can call it fantasy/nonsense if you wish, but Ireland would certainly feel they have benefited from inward investment due to a competitive corporation tax rate.  Do you honestly think if uk corporation tax was raised to 40 percent it wouldn't impact corporate decisions on where to base their operations and subsequent employment of the local workforce?

[DungBeetle]

http://www.pwc.ie/media-centre/press-release/2015/2015-pwc-ireland-thumbs-up-for-fdi.html

"An overwhelming majority (92%) of multinational CEOs confirmed that their investment in Ireland is a success..........The retention of our 12.5% corporate tax rate remains very important with over half (55%) saying this is a critical factor"

[neeko]

look at the first letter of each line and read down

Click to see full-size image.

Apart from the spelling mistake it is an almost believable fake.

[AdamM]

My guess is that IDS had already decided he was going to find something in the budget to dramatically flounce out over, so he could go full bore on the Brexit campaign and line himself up for the top job if successful.

Cynical?

Government policy is devastating the lives of the most vulnerable people in our society. I'd suggest "dramatically flounce out" is a bit strong.

You misunderstand me. I'm not saying the policies that IDS is claiming to be indefensible are not. They're plain evil. I'm just saying this ass-hat doesn't give a shit and is using it as a tool to further his own career.

[Doobs]

http://www.pwc.ie/media-centre/press-release/2015/2015-pwc-ireland-thumbs-up-for-fdi.html

"An overwhelming majority (92%) of multinational CEOs confirmed that their investment in Ireland is a success..........The retention of our 12.5% corporate tax rate remains very important with over half (55%) saying this is a critical factor"

Multinationals in happy to pay less tax shock.  And everybody else is now competing to produce lower and lower corporation tax. It isn't that Ireland is a "success" that is the problem it is that they and the tax havens have made it harder for other countries to raise meaningful tax from corporations.  As I said in my post earlier, the end game is going to be pretty disastrous for everybody.

This isn't politics of envy stuff either.  I have done pretty well in life and was last a regular employee nearly 20 years ago. It is a question of good economics.  If you give money to people who haven't got a lot it tends to get recycled pretty quickly in the local economy, you give breaks to multinationals and the rich, it isn't so easily put back into our economy.  If you are hammering the poor at the sand time as benefitting corporations and the rich then I just can't see how that helps us balance the books.  There are simply better ways in my view. 

FWIW Ireland's success or otherwise would be an interesting debate.  It isn't that long ago when their economy was on its knees. 

[doubleup]

http://www.pwc.ie/media-centre/press-release/2015/2015-pwc-ireland-thumbs-up-for-fdi.html

"An overwhelming majority (92%) of multinational CEOs confirmed that their investment in Ireland is a success..........The retention of our 12.5% corporate tax rate remains very important with over half (55%) saying this is a critical factor"

the ability to access a highly skilled workforce - noted by over three quarters of respondents (69%) - is the most important factor critical to increasing and maintaining this investment

 well over half (61%) saying maintaining our cost competitiveness, including wages and rents, is vital for winning FDI

So nowhere near the most important.

Also how much of Ireland's investment is shell organisations sucking the goodness from other parts of Europe.  Obviously low tax is top priority for those leeches.

[DungBeetle]

http://www.pwc.ie/media-centre/press-release/2015/2015-pwc-ireland-thumbs-up-for-fdi.html

"An overwhelming majority (92%) of multinational CEOs confirmed that their investment in Ireland is a success..........The retention of our 12.5% corporate tax rate remains very important with over half (55%) saying this is a critical factor"

the ability to access a highly skilled workforce - noted by over three quarters of respondents (69%) - is the most important factor critical to increasing and maintaining this investment

 well over half (61%) saying maintaining our cost competitiveness, including wages and rents, is vital for winning FDI

So nowhere near the most important.

Also how much of Ireland's investment is shell organisations sucking the goodness from other parts of Europe.  Obviously low tax is top priority for those leeches.

An excellent 180 degree turn sir.  Gone from low tax being a fantasy/nonsense to "well it's only 55% of them and other things are more important."  Well played.

Tip:  If you didn't use "fantasy/nonsense" about things you don't agree with that clearly aren't "fantasy/nonsense" you might get a more constructive debate.

[DungBeetle]

http://www.pwc.ie/media-centre/press-release/2015/2015-pwc-ireland-thumbs-up-for-fdi.html

"An overwhelming majority (92%) of multinational CEOs confirmed that their investment in Ireland is a success..........The retention of our 12.5% corporate tax rate remains very important with over half (55%) saying this is a critical factor"

Multinationals in happy to pay less tax shock.  And everybody else is now competing to produce lower and lower corporation tax. It isn't that Ireland is a "success" that is the problem it is that they and the tax havens have made it harder for other countries to raise meaningful tax from corporations.  As I said in my post earlier, the end game is going to be pretty disastrous for everybody.

This isn't politics of envy stuff either.  I have done pretty well in life and was last a regular employee nearly 20 years ago. It is a question of good economics.  If you give money to people who haven't got a lot it tends to get recycled pretty quickly in the local economy, you give breaks to multinationals and the rich, it isn't so easily put back into our economy.  If you are hammering the poor at the sand time as benefitting corporations and the rich then I just can't see how that helps us balance the books.  There are simply better ways in my view.  

FWIW Ireland's success or otherwise would be an interesting debate.  It isn't that long ago when their economy was on its knees.  

Still no comment from you Doobs on corporation tax being a pretty negligible part of government income (less than 10%).  Stick all corporation tax at a blanket 5% worldwide and you'll get the countries who generate the income generating the most tax in income tax/national insurance/business rates/VAT in my opinion.  Put up dividends tax if you want to whack the real beneficiaries.

[RickBFA]

In the budget, Osbourne referred regularly to closing loopholes and raising funds from bringing in more tax from larger businesses.

It was interesting to see the move to raise £7.9 billion (going from memory) from larger corporations which will fund the reduction in business rates for small business. To anyone this looks fairer doesn't it?

The comment earlier about the lady taking on an apprentice as a result was countered by someone saying that most will probably just upgrade their mercs. For some of these small shopkeepers it will potentially be the difference between closing or staying in business. The comment about upgrading their mercs was out of order really.

They appear to be making moves to start going after large businesses that abuse the system whilst offering incentives to business that play the game. Seems a reasonable strategy doesn't it?

I accept there is a hell of a long way to go and some of Osbourne's cuts and PR are a total joke.

You do have to wonder what the hell the Labour Party were doing about this for 13 years though, don't you?

Whether you hate the Tories, hate their cuts and attacks on the welfare budget, they are actually taking some steps to make the system of taxing larger corporations marginally fairer.

[doubleup]

http://www.pwc.ie/media-centre/press-release/2015/2015-pwc-ireland-thumbs-up-for-fdi.html

"An overwhelming majority (92%) of multinational CEOs confirmed that their investment in Ireland is a success..........The retention of our 12.5% corporate tax rate remains very important with over half (55%) saying this is a critical factor"

the ability to access a highly skilled workforce - noted by over three quarters of respondents (69%) - is the most important factor critical to increasing and maintaining this investment

 well over half (61%) saying maintaining our cost competitiveness, including wages and rents, is vital for winning FDI

So nowhere near the most important.

Also how much of Ireland's investment is shell organisations sucking the goodness from other parts of Europe.  Obviously low tax is top priority for those leeches.

An excellent 180 degree turn sir.  Gone from low tax being a fantasy/nonsense to "well it's only 55% of them and other things are more important."  Well played.

Tip:  If you didn't use "fantasy/nonsense" about things you don't agree with that clearly aren't "fantasy/nonsense" you might get a more constructive debate.

What?

The argument that business will leave/not invest if they have to pay their fair share in tax is indeed fantasy nonsense.  The USA has 39% corporation tax ffs.

As "evidence" you produced a survey that presumably had a number of choices to be picked in order of importance. And tax wasn't the most important.  When I point this out, you say that I have changed tune?

Business primarily requires skills, resources, infrastructure and stability.  These cost money.  Multinationals do their best to avoid paying their share and insufficient effort has been made to bring them to book.

[Doobs]

http://www.pwc.ie/media-centre/press-release/2015/2015-pwc-ireland-thumbs-up-for-fdi.html

"An overwhelming majority (92%) of multinational CEOs confirmed that their investment in Ireland is a success..........The retention of our 12.5% corporate tax rate remains very important with over half (55%) saying this is a critical factor"

Multinationals in happy to pay less tax shock.  And everybody else is now competing to produce lower and lower corporation tax. It isn't that Ireland is a "success" that is the problem it is that they and the tax havens have made it harder for other countries to raise meaningful tax from corporations.  As I said in my post earlier, the end game is going to be pretty disastrous for everybody.

This isn't politics of envy stuff either.  I have done pretty well in life and was last a regular employee nearly 20 years ago. It is a question of good economics.  If you give money to people who haven't got a lot it tends to get recycled pretty quickly in the local economy, you give breaks to multinationals and the rich, it isn't so easily put back into our economy.  If you are hammering the poor at the sand time as benefitting corporations and the rich then I just can't see how that helps us balance the books.  There are simply better ways in my view.  

FWIW Ireland's success or otherwise would be an interesting debate.  It isn't that long ago when their economy was on its knees.  

Still no comment from you Doobs on corporation tax being a pretty negligible part of government income (less than 10%).  Stick all corporation tax at a blanket 5% worldwide and you'll get the countries who generate the income generating the most tax in income tax/national insurance/business rates/VAT in my opinion.  Put up dividends tax if you want to whack the real beneficiaries.

You are just guessing.  Whilst there is going to be a link between the overall tax burden and economic performance.  Speculating on how the coroporates would behave if you made their tax minimal. 

The directors role should be, more or less, maximise profits. The tax comes after you have maximised profits.  So you reduce tax, it shouldn't result in any more apprentices in the short term.  Maybe some of this extra post tax profit gets reinvested, maybe it all goes in dividends.  Who knows?  It is all very vague and inefficient if your aim is to balance your books right now.   

The government said they were going to take benefits from the disabled, and people get upset about an upgrading merc comment.  Get a grip, Rick.  I get more dividends, and I have quite a lot of shares, I am way more likely to just spend it on luxuries (or a nice holiday or squirrel it away) than somebody on the breadline.  This is just how it is and I really don't see anything controversial or offensive here.  Just compare the answers from your rich and poor friends if you asked them what they would do with £1000.  A lot of this trickle down economics needs some pretty hairy assumptions to make it better than letting the poor just keep their money. 

[DungBeetle]

http://www.pwc.ie/media-centre/press-release/2015/2015-pwc-ireland-thumbs-up-for-fdi.html

"An overwhelming majority (92%) of multinational CEOs confirmed that their investment in Ireland is a success..........The retention of our 12.5% corporate tax rate remains very important with over half (55%) saying this is a critical factor"

Multinationals in happy to pay less tax shock.  And everybody else is now competing to produce lower and lower corporation tax. It isn't that Ireland is a "success" that is the problem it is that they and the tax havens have made it harder for other countries to raise meaningful tax from corporations.  As I said in my post earlier, the end game is going to be pretty disastrous for everybody.

This isn't politics of envy stuff either.  I have done pretty well in life and was last a regular employee nearly 20 years ago. It is a question of good economics.  If you give money to people who haven't got a lot it tends to get recycled pretty quickly in the local economy, you give breaks to multinationals and the rich, it isn't so easily put back into our economy.  If you are hammering the poor at the sand time as benefitting corporations and the rich then I just can't see how that helps us balance the books.  There are simply better ways in my view.  

FWIW Ireland's success or otherwise would be an interesting debate.  It isn't that long ago when their economy was on its knees.  

Still no comment from you Doobs on corporation tax being a pretty negligible part of government income (less than 10%).  Stick all corporation tax at a blanket 5% worldwide and you'll get the countries who generate the income generating the most tax in income tax/national insurance/business rates/VAT in my opinion.  Put up dividends tax if you want to whack the real beneficiaries.

You are just guessing.  Whilst there is going to be a link between the overall tax burden and economic performance.  Speculating on how the coroporates would behave if you made their tax minimal. 

The directors role should be, more or less, maximise profits. The tax comes after you have maximised profits.  So you reduce tax, it shouldn't result in any more apprentices in the short term.  Maybe some of this extra post tax profit gets reinvested, maybe it all goes in dividends.  Who knows?  It is all very vague and inefficient if your aim is to balance your books right now.   

The government said they were going to take benefits from the disabled, and people get upset about an upgrading merc comment.  Get a grip, Rick.  I get more dividends, and I have quite a lot of shares, I am way more likely to just spend it on luxuries (or a nice holiday or squirrel it away) than somebody on the breadline.  This is just how it is and I really don't see anything controversial or offensive here.  Just compare the answers from your rich and poor friends if you asked them what they would do with £1000.  A lot of this trickle down economics needs some pretty hairy assumptions to make it better than letting the poor just keep their money. 

Tax structuring is as much a part of profit maximisation as anything else for a global corporate. A different tax from corporation tax but look how the bookies structure themselves (or at least did at any rate before Osborne made changes to betting duty).