The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[nirvana]

In my experience Momentum genuinely do believe that Tories enjoy torturing lower wage earners.   The average Labour voter normally has a more sensible view.

They also believe that a core Tory value is to 'give money to their billionaire mates' while working in a £70k a year job themselves.

I mean, if that's the case, that isn't good for the country, but it sounds like they are really good loyal mates, so there is that

I like this one. Even Tighty was tinfoiling about disaster capitalism a few weeks ago. Nb hope all is well, we haven't seen you for a few days and there's a campaign underway.

[tikay]

In my experience Momentum genuinely do believe that Tories enjoy torturing lower wage earners.   The average Labour voter normally has a more sensible view.

They also believe that a core Tory value is to 'give money to their billionaire mates' while working in a £70k a year job themselves.

I mean, if that's the case, that isn't good for the country, but it sounds like they are really good loyal mates, so there is that

I like this one. Even Tighty was tinfoiling about disaster capitalism a few weeks ago. Nb hope all is well, we haven't seen you for a few days and there's a campaign underway.

Think he's just very busy with work Glen, & had to deal with what Politicians & business people describe as "challenging headwinds".

[StuartHopkin]

I asked someone on facebook who was posting the usual negative shite about the tories to show me something good about labour. I wanted a reason 'to' vote rather than more reasons 'not to' vote.

Anyway they came up with this: https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/news/106806/glance-heres-everything-new-labour-announced-2019?fbclid=IwAR3-vvzXriXcLuYPNNFHwrXTvPiJbAuGOHVTBg_4ZNrfdxoKj9mPYJuIAds

I mean seriously. How the f**k can they possibly deliver any of it?

We start with net zero carbon emissions by 2030. Hmmmm..... I'm a huge fan of this but I don't see how it's feasible. Trying to get there is something hugely positive though so I'm all aboard

Pledged to nationalise the big six energy companies. Erm, how exactly? Even if they somehow find the money can they really force everyone to sell their shares? Why not just set up a new company and make it so good that everyone starts using it for energy and it eventually becomes 'the big one'?

Free or affordable green public transport. Love it. Jezza for PM!!!!

Free prescriptions. Yup, nice one.

4 day working week with no reduction in earnings? I mean come on. Does anyone think this is possible?

Halve the use of food banks? Again how exactly? Just shut half of them perhaps? Why not nationalise Tesco and Morrisons? That would fix the food problem.....

Anyway there's more of course but I really can't see how they can make these promises. Someone please explain to me how I'm wrong if I am.

Do they make these pledges knowing that they're going to lose anyway so they'll never get called liars for failing to deliver their promises?

Don't forget your tenants will have a right to buy your houses at a discounted price

[DaveShoelace]

I asked someone on facebook who was posting the usual negative shite about the tories to show me something good about labour. I wanted a reason 'to' vote rather than more reasons 'not to' vote.

Anyway they came up with this: https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/news/106806/glance-heres-everything-new-labour-announced-2019?fbclid=IwAR3-vvzXriXcLuYPNNFHwrXTvPiJbAuGOHVTBg_4ZNrfdxoKj9mPYJuIAds

I mean seriously. How the f**k can they possibly deliver any of it?

We start with net zero carbon emissions by 2030. Hmmmm..... I'm a huge fan of this but I don't see how it's feasible. Trying to get there is something hugely positive though so I'm all aboard

Pledged to nationalise the big six energy companies. Erm, how exactly? Even if they somehow find the money can they really force everyone to sell their shares? Why not just set up a new company and make it so good that everyone starts using it for energy and it eventually becomes 'the big one'?

Free or affordable green public transport. Love it. Jezza for PM!!!!

Free prescriptions. Yup, nice one.

4 day working week with no reduction in earnings? I mean come on. Does anyone think this is possible?

Halve the use of food banks? Again how exactly? Just shut half of them perhaps? Why not nationalise Tesco and Morrisons? That would fix the food problem.....

Anyway there's more of course but I really can't see how they can make these promises. Someone please explain to me how I'm wrong if I am.

Do they make these pledges knowing that they're going to lose anyway so they'll never get called liars for failing to deliver their promises?

Don't forget your tenants will have a right to buy your houses at a discounted price

All of these dopey ideas, would Parliament get to vote on them? I never quite know which policies the ruling party can crack on with and which ones require a majority vote.

[Doobs]

The theory on the renationalisations is that they pay for themselves because the dividends are used to reduce the debt rather than pay shareholders.  So in theory that could be sound.

The problem is that they have conflicts in the real world.
To pay the private sector price for the asset, they have to, more or less, produce private sector dividends.  It is only more or less because the Government can borrow at lower rates than the private sector (you have to asterisk this because lower interest rates are likely to be dependent on lower borrowing levels than labour are planning).

Then you realise they also intend charging lower prices, otherwise what is the benefit in nationalisation for the downtrodden?  Then you realise that they would want to pay living wages and better pensions to workers.   But these conflict with producing profits to pay down the debt, so the debt doesn't get repaid as expected.  For example, is Rebecca Long-Bailey going to be ruthless in cost cutting if that is needed make sure the nationalised industries make enough to pay off the new debt?  Does she face down a union threatening to strike for 10% more pay and pensions like others in the public sector?  Does she lay off 20% of the workforce?  I don't know who will be the minister ultinately in charge, but substitute any of the left wing labour shadow ministers and see if you can see these things happening.

You will save on fat cat salaries, but it is likely to be a drop in the ocean on a utility's cost base.  And I am assuming that Labour aren't going to push harder on green energy etc if these companies are nationalised vs private.

I think the idea is nice in theory, but likely fails in the Real World.

Having said that I think the rail industry works easier than others, but do think the idea of mass nationalisations is an overreach.

I do like the idea of state utility just out competing the private sector ones, but isn't the private sector going to be better at marketing their overpriced stuff?

[Jon MW]

The theory on the renationalisations is that they pay for themselves because the dividends are used to reduce the debt rather than pay shareholders.  So in theory that could be sound.

The problem is that they have conflicts in the real world.
To pay the private sector price for the asset, they have to, more or less, produce private sector dividends.  It is only more or less because the Government can borrow at lower rates than the private sector (you have to asterisk this because lower interest rates are likely to be dependent on lower borrowing levels than labour are planning).

Then you realise they also intend charging lower prices, otherwise what is the benefit in nationalisation for the downtrodden?  Then you realise that they would want to pay living wages and better pensions to workers.   But these conflict with producing profits to pay down the debt, so the debt doesn't get repaid as expected.  For example, is Rebecca Long-Bailey going to be ruthless in cost cutting if that is needed make sure the nationalised industries make enough to pay off the new debt?  Does she face down a union threatening to strike for 10% more pay and pensions like others in the public sector?  Does she lay off 20% of the workforce?  I don't know who will be the minister ultinately in charge, but substitute any of the left wing labour shadow ministers and see if you can see these things happening.

You will save on fat cat salaries, but it is likely to be a drop in the ocean on a utility's cost base.  And I am assuming that Labour aren't going to push harder on green energy etc if these companies are nationalised vs private.

I think the idea is nice in theory, but likely fails in the Real World.

Having said that I think the rail industry works easier than others, but do think the idea of mass nationalisations is an overreach.

I do like the idea of state utility just out competing the private sector ones, but isn't the private sector going to be better at marketing their overpriced stuff?

Even the saving money on fat cat salaries isn't likely to help in terms of salary cost.

You might get rid of a one or two 'top' executives on 7 figures but you'd replace them with a dozen civil servants on 5  or 6 figure salaries. Once you've added the extra costs of keeping up union based wages for all the rank and file your salary costs probably aren't going to be that much different - that would be good for decreasing income inequality but not good for making the money back to pay off the debt.

I think running the railway like TFL is run would be good (i.e. a public sector control of all the branding, plus what services have to be run and at what costs but with private sector suppliers) but I have a sneaking suspicion that TFL might only do this so well because of the vast amount of money that gets pumped into it.

[Doobs]

I asked someone on facebook who was posting the usual negative shite about the tories to show me something good about labour. I wanted a reason 'to' vote rather than more reasons 'not to' vote.

Anyway they came up with this: https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/news/106806/glance-heres-everything-new-labour-announced-2019?fbclid=IwAR3-vvzXriXcLuYPNNFHwrXTvPiJbAuGOHVTBg_4ZNrfdxoKj9mPYJuIAds

I mean seriously. How the f**k can they possibly deliver any of it?

We start with net zero carbon emissions by 2030. Hmmmm..... I'm a huge fan of this but I don't see how it's feasible. Trying to get there is something hugely positive though so I'm all aboard

Pledged to nationalise the big six energy companies. Erm, how exactly? Even if they somehow find the money can they really force everyone to sell their shares? Why not just set up a new company and make it so good that everyone starts using it for energy and it eventually becomes 'the big one'?

Free or affordable green public transport. Love it. Jezza for PM!!!!

Free prescriptions. Yup, nice one.

4 day working week with no reduction in earnings? I mean come on. Does anyone think this is possible?

Halve the use of food banks? Again how exactly? Just shut half of them perhaps? Why not nationalise Tesco and Morrisons? That would fix the food problem.....

Anyway there's more of course but I really can't see how they can make these promises. Someone please explain to me how I'm wrong if I am.

Do they make these pledges knowing that they're going to lose anyway so they'll never get called liars for failing to deliver their promises?

Don't forget your tenants will have a right to buy your houses at a discounted price

All of these dopey ideas, would Parliament get to vote on them? I never quite know which policies the ruling party can crack on with and which ones require a majority vote.

Parliament gets to vote on any budget and any new laws.  Secondary regulations can change without a vote.  If something is major there should be a vote on it.   In the insurance world there are a whole bunch of secondary regulations that move around much more often than the primary legislation (the original act).

I think the need to do something about housing is a big priority, and it may well need something radical.  It would be a good start if some councils simply started enforcing the laws as they stand on new developments, and borrowing to help resolve this issue is more preferable than some of the proposed borrowing.  Right to buy in the public and private sector seems a minefield to me.  Letting people buy at big discounts in some areas has been disastrous in some areas and just creates a different set of rich people fairly arbitrarily.


 

[DaveShoelace]

If Labour were to nationalise the rail service, is it likely to be mandatory to ensure that the staff of the rail companies get the equivalent job with Labour Rail? I presume the process would be something akin to a merger?

[Doobs]

If Labour were to nationalise the rail service, is it likely to be mandatory to ensure that the staff of the rail companies get the equivalent job with Labour Rail? I presume the process would be something akin to a merger?

I assume it is easier than most as they can just let the francises expire, so there isn't a big one off cost as there would be if they had to buy a utiity.  Employees currently move between franchises so there is no new issue there? 

[DaveShoelace]

If Labour were to nationalise the rail service, is it likely to be mandatory to ensure that the staff of the rail companies get the equivalent job with Labour Rail? I presume the process would be something akin to a merger?

I assume it is easier than most as they can just let the francises expire, so there isn't a big one off cost as there would be if they had to buy a utiity.  Employees currently move between franchises so there is no new issue there? 

Ahhhh of course, I never actually thought of it in franchise terms. Bah, that actually slightly changes my aversion to renationalising the rail network

[horseplayer]

Priyamvada Gopal
@PriyamvadaGopal
Dying in Fire= Lacking in Common Sense
Rape=Fails to Keep Knickers On
Poor People=Best to Put Them Down

To be fair, a lot of Tories are doing an excellent job in getting their core values across.

[RickBFA]

Priyamvada Gopal
@PriyamvadaGopal
Dying in Fire= Lacking in Common Sense
Rape=Fails to Keep Knickers On
Poor People=Best to Put Them Down

To be fair, a lot of Tories are doing an excellent job in getting their core values across.

I was listening to a Labour MP yesterday trying to defend the fact one her colleagues commented that she looked forward to celebrating the deaths of Tony Blair and Benjamin Netanyahu (words to that effect). She said it was common for people to celebrate the deaths of people and used Hitler as another example.

For every stupid Tory comment there are plenty of braindead, offensive Labour ones too.

We can all be selective eh?

[horseplayer]

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[horseplayer]

Click to see full-size image.

[RickBFA]

https://www.lbc.co.uk/politics/elections/general-election-2019/labour-candidate-ian-byrne-wrote-abusive-comments/

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/25/jared-o-mara-labour-suspends-jared-omara-over-offensive-online-comments

https://www.24housing.co.uk/yournews/labour-candidate-sacked-over-offensive-twitter-comments/

https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/chris-williamson-labour-mps-offensive-decision-disgrace-499597


Would it be fair to characterise these as core Labour values ?

With the Momentum nut jobs running Labour there will be plenty more to come no doubt.