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Poll
Question: How will you vote on December 12th 2019
Conservative - 19 (33.9%)
Labour - 12 (21.4%)
SNP - 2 (3.6%)
Lib Dem - 8 (14.3%)
Brexit - 1 (1.8%)
Green - 6 (10.7%)
Other - 2 (3.6%)
Spoil - 0 (0%)
Not voting - 6 (10.7%)
Total Voters: 55

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Author Topic: The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged  (Read 2180185 times)
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« Reply #21915 on: November 07, 2019, 09:51:13 AM »

The Jewish Chronicle front page this week is pretty spectacular.

As Lewis Goodall says, "Forget everything else, which isn’t that surprising, this is by far the most damning Labour story around today."

https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1192375778396327936?s=20
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« Reply #21916 on: November 07, 2019, 10:02:08 AM »

The Jewish Chronicle front page this week is pretty spectacular.

As Lewis Goodall says, "Forget everything else, which isn’t that surprising, this is by far the most damning Labour story around today."

https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1192375778396327936?s=20

I saw that last week and was incredulous at the results of a poll that said 47% of British Jews would seriously consider emigrating if Corbyn won.

In case anyone is getting their hopes up I am not planning on leaving anytime soon.
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« Reply #21917 on: November 07, 2019, 10:20:28 AM »

The Jewish Chronicle front page this week is pretty spectacular.

As Lewis Goodall says, "Forget everything else, which isn’t that surprising, this is by far the most damning Labour story around today."

https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1192375778396327936?s=20

I saw that last week and was incredulous at the results of a poll that said 47% of British Jews would seriously consider emigrating if Corbyn won.

In case anyone is getting their hopes up I am not planning on leaving anytime soon.

It would be interesting to know how many would consider emigrating if Johnson won, or if Farage won?  Isn't this partly because it is a leading question, so if I was asked if I would consider emigrating if Farage won, then I may well say yes.   But considering, even if I do it seriously, doesn't really reflect the chances of it really happening?  Didn't a fair few rich people declare they would be leaving if Blair won back in the day?   Presumably some of these people are leaving because they think he is going to screw up the country and not because he leads an anti-semetic party?

Anyway we already new what the Jewish Chronicke editor thought, he has said often enough? 

Ian Austin is a bit more interesting, even though he has made his thoughts on Corbyn pretty clear before too.  I just can't get why he says vote for a seriously right leaning Tory Government over the Lib Dems or Greens?  It makes little sense to me.

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« Reply #21918 on: November 07, 2019, 11:03:30 AM »

The Jewish Chronicle front page this week is pretty spectacular.

As Lewis Goodall says, "Forget everything else, which isn’t that surprising, this is by far the most damning Labour story around today."

https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1192375778396327936?s=20

I saw that last week and was incredulous at the results of a poll that said 47% of British Jews would seriously consider emigrating if Corbyn won.

In case anyone is getting their hopes up I am not planning on leaving anytime soon.

Hi Ralph

Putting aside the emigration rhetoric, which feels to me a little over-dramatic (and 'considering' in the poll provides an easy option to say yes to the question), what are your general thoughts on the antisemitism issue within Labour, and the ongoing EHRC investigation?

I'm not directly targeted by it, but I see a lot of what's posted on social media under the #GTTO and #JC4PM hashtags, etc and the counter-reaction against it.  Consequently, it feels like an increasing problem, particularly as many of the new Parliamentary candidates they're selecting seem to have 'questionable' history regarding this.

I'm asking on the assumption that you're perhaps less exposed to the social media side of things, but more likely to perceive the real-life impact, if any, and I'm intrigued as to the extent of the correlation between the two.

My constituency Labour MP is Jewish, and less vocal about the issue than I'd perhaps expect, but I'm not sure whether this is because it's politically awkward for him to be so or because the scale of the issue is perhaps exacerbated via social media.

Hope you don't mind me asking, but feel free to tell me to sod off, if so.

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« Reply #21919 on: November 07, 2019, 11:07:31 AM »

The Jewish Chronicle front page this week is pretty spectacular.

As Lewis Goodall says, "Forget everything else, which isn’t that surprising, this is by far the most damning Labour story around today."

https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1192375778396327936?s=20

I saw that last week and was incredulous at the results of a poll that said 47% of British Jews would seriously consider emigrating if Corbyn won.

In case anyone is getting their hopes up I am not planning on leaving anytime soon.

It would be interesting to know how many would consider emigrating if Johnson won, or if Farage won?  Isn't this partly because it is a leading question, so if I was asked if I would consider emigrating if Farage won, then I may well say yes.   But considering, even if I do it seriously, doesn't really reflect the chances of it really happening?  Didn't a fair few rich people declare they would be leaving if Blair won back in the day?   Presumably some of these people are leaving because they think he is going to screw up the country and not because he leads an anti-semetic party?

Anyway we already new what the Jewish Chronicke editor thought, he has said often enough? 

Ian Austin is a bit more interesting, even though he has made his thoughts on Corbyn pretty clear before too.  I just can't get why he says vote for a seriously right leaning Tory Government over the Lib Dems or Greens?  It makes little sense to me.



Totally agree on Ian Austin.  His sentiments on Corbyn align with mine, but it doesn't extend to backing BoJo as the 'only' alternative.  I struggle to see how anyone who's 'truly Labour' can do so.

It's part of the problem with us having a GE at the moment, as there are two candidates for PM who I find totally unsuitable for office, for differing reasons.  We'll get one of these by default, but that doesn't mean that anyone has to specifically vote for them, which is just pushing the '2 party politics' rhetoric.
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« Reply #21920 on: November 07, 2019, 01:13:36 PM »


It's part of the problem with us having a GE at the moment, as there are two candidates for PM who I find totally unsuitable for office, for differing reasons.  We'll get one of these by default, but that doesn't mean that anyone has to specifically vote for them, which is just pushing the '2 party politics' rhetoric.

Snap. My MP is a young, sensible Tory who I like but I can't vote for him without impliciting supporting Boris, Mogg, Javid, Patel and Gove as well.
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« Reply #21921 on: November 07, 2019, 01:15:51 PM »

The Jewish Chronicle front page this week is pretty spectacular.

As Lewis Goodall says, "Forget everything else, which isn’t that surprising, this is by far the most damning Labour story around today."

https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1192375778396327936?s=20

I saw that last week and was incredulous at the results of a poll that said 47% of British Jews would seriously consider emigrating if Corbyn won.

In case anyone is getting their hopes up I am not planning on leaving anytime soon.

Hi Ralph

Putting aside the emigration rhetoric, which feels to me a little over-dramatic (and 'considering' in the poll provides an easy option to say yes to the question), what are your general thoughts on the antisemitism issue within Labour, and the ongoing EHRC investigation?

I'm not directly targeted by it, but I see a lot of what's posted on social media under the #GTTO and #JC4PM hashtags, etc and the counter-reaction against it.  Consequently, it feels like an increasing problem, particularly as many of the new Parliamentary candidates they're selecting seem to have 'questionable' history regarding this.

I'm asking on the assumption that you're perhaps less exposed to the social media side of things, but more likely to perceive the real-life impact, if any, and I'm intrigued as to the extent of the correlation between the two.

My constituency Labour MP is Jewish, and less vocal about the issue than I'd perhaps expect, but I'm not sure whether this is because it's politically awkward for him to be so or because the scale of the issue is perhaps exacerbated via social media.

Hope you don't mind me asking, but feel free to tell me to sod off, if so.

You replied to me recently along these lines but I never replied back.

My instinct of the anti-semitism stuff is there is no doubt a grain of truth there. It's one of those where social media really doesn't help - it seems to bring out the worst in people where they get to speak in their echo chambers with rarely any consequence for doing so.

But do I think JC, the leadership, and the majority of the party are anti-semitic? No I don't. Would this have been an issue under a different leader? That's not as clear cut but my instinct is "most likely". Would under a different leader it receive as much media attention as it has? No chance. It's a story to beat Corbyn with that's stuck.

So i'm not saying there isn't an issue there. There may well be. The investigation should shed some light.

And i'm by no means a Corbyn fan boy. I think with a different leader Labour would be much better and save us from what we're going through now.

Also worth pointing out this sort of issue is by no means limited to Labour. Johnson committed in the leadership election to an independent investigation to Islamophobia in the party. Whether they go ahead with that or not is another matter but in terms of "how can anyone vote for a party under investigation for racism" it's relevant.
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« Reply #21922 on: November 07, 2019, 01:51:01 PM »

The Jewish Chronicle front page this week is pretty spectacular.

As Lewis Goodall says, "Forget everything else, which isn’t that surprising, this is by far the most damning Labour story around today."

https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1192375778396327936?s=20

I saw that last week and was incredulous at the results of a poll that said 47% of British Jews would seriously consider emigrating if Corbyn won.

In case anyone is getting their hopes up I am not planning on leaving anytime soon.

Hi Ralph

Putting aside the emigration rhetoric, which feels to me a little over-dramatic (and 'considering' in the poll provides an easy option to say yes to the question), what are your general thoughts on the antisemitism issue within Labour, and the ongoing EHRC investigation?

I'm not directly targeted by it, but I see a lot of what's posted on social media under the #GTTO and #JC4PM hashtags, etc and the counter-reaction against it.  Consequently, it feels like an increasing problem, particularly as many of the new Parliamentary candidates they're selecting seem to have 'questionable' history regarding this.

I'm asking on the assumption that you're perhaps less exposed to the social media side of things, but more likely to perceive the real-life impact, if any, and I'm intrigued as to the extent of the correlation between the two.

My constituency Labour MP is Jewish, and less vocal about the issue than I'd perhaps expect, but I'm not sure whether this is because it's politically awkward for him to be so or because the scale of the issue is perhaps exacerbated via social media.

Hope you don't mind me asking, but feel free to tell me to sod off, if so.



I imagine the poll in question reflects the views of the ultra-orthodox community who always seem to be the most visible and vocal although they only represent a small minority within the Jewish community. I am an atheist but I remain a secular Jew and consider myself equally Jewish although I'm sure the orthodox would strongly disagree.

As a lifelong labour voter I do find myself torn by some of JC's alliances, especially his close ties with Hamas and many Jewish friends despise him because of that. On the other hand I'm a firm supporter of the majority of the labour manifesto and after considerable agonising have decided to continue voting labour for the greater good despite my reservations about many of Corbyn's views.

There are many people who balance being anti-zionist without being ant-semitic, there are in fact many Jews who are anti-zionist. My opinion is that Corbyn has gone too far in his anti-zionist crusade and has muddied the waters. This stance has been taken advantage of by some members with less pure motives.

In real life I don't really come across much anti-semitism other than the odd trope which occasionally comes up in casual conversation usually because of gaucheness, but I am always quick to point that sort of thing out, gently. Many educated people here in The Midlands still seem to believe some of the old conspiracy theories, until I put them right.

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« Reply #21923 on: November 07, 2019, 02:04:00 PM »

The Jewish Chronicle front page this week is pretty spectacular.

As Lewis Goodall says, "Forget everything else, which isn’t that surprising, this is by far the most damning Labour story around today."

https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1192375778396327936?s=20

I saw that last week and was incredulous at the results of a poll that said 47% of British Jews would seriously consider emigrating if Corbyn won.

In case anyone is getting their hopes up I am not planning on leaving anytime soon.

Hi Ralph

Putting aside the emigration rhetoric, which feels to me a little over-dramatic (and 'considering' in the poll provides an easy option to say yes to the question), what are your general thoughts on the antisemitism issue within Labour, and the ongoing EHRC investigation?

I'm not directly targeted by it, but I see a lot of what's posted on social media under the #GTTO and #JC4PM hashtags, etc and the counter-reaction against it.  Consequently, it feels like an increasing problem, particularly as many of the new Parliamentary candidates they're selecting seem to have 'questionable' history regarding this.

I'm asking on the assumption that you're perhaps less exposed to the social media side of things, but more likely to perceive the real-life impact, if any, and I'm intrigued as to the extent of the correlation between the two.

My constituency Labour MP is Jewish, and less vocal about the issue than I'd perhaps expect, but I'm not sure whether this is because it's politically awkward for him to be so or because the scale of the issue is perhaps exacerbated via social media.

Hope you don't mind me asking, but feel free to tell me to sod off, if so.



I imagine the poll in question reflects the views of the ultra-orthodox community who always seem to be the most visible and vocal although they only represent a small minority within the Jewish community. I am an atheist but I remain a secular Jew and consider myself equally Jewish although I'm sure the orthodox would strongly disagree.

As a lifelong labour voter I do find myself torn by some of JC's alliances, especially his close ties with Hamas and many Jewish friends despise him because of that. On the other hand I'm a firm supporter of the majority of the labour manifesto and after considerable agonising have decided to continue voting labour for the greater good despite my reservations about many of Corbyn's views.

There are many people who balance being anti-zionist without being ant-semitic, there are in fact many Jews who are anti-zionist. My opinion is that Corbyn has gone too far in his anti-zionist crusade and has muddied the waters. This stance has been taken advantage of by some members with less pure motives.

In real life I don't really come across much anti-semitism other than the odd trope which occasionally comes up in casual conversation usually because of gaucheness, but I am always quick to point that sort of thing out, gently. Many educated people here in The Midlands still seem to believe some of the old conspiracy theories, until I put them right.



Thank you, much appreciated.
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« Reply #21924 on: November 07, 2019, 02:14:57 PM »

The Jewish Chronicle front page this week is pretty spectacular.

As Lewis Goodall says, "Forget everything else, which isn’t that surprising, this is by far the most damning Labour story around today."

https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1192375778396327936?s=20

I saw that last week and was incredulous at the results of a poll that said 47% of British Jews would seriously consider emigrating if Corbyn won.

In case anyone is getting their hopes up I am not planning on leaving anytime soon.

Hi Ralph

Putting aside the emigration rhetoric, which feels to me a little over-dramatic (and 'considering' in the poll provides an easy option to say yes to the question), what are your general thoughts on the antisemitism issue within Labour, and the ongoing EHRC investigation?

I'm not directly targeted by it, but I see a lot of what's posted on social media under the #GTTO and #JC4PM hashtags, etc and the counter-reaction against it.  Consequently, it feels like an increasing problem, particularly as many of the new Parliamentary candidates they're selecting seem to have 'questionable' history regarding this.

I'm asking on the assumption that you're perhaps less exposed to the social media side of things, but more likely to perceive the real-life impact, if any, and I'm intrigued as to the extent of the correlation between the two.

My constituency Labour MP is Jewish, and less vocal about the issue than I'd perhaps expect, but I'm not sure whether this is because it's politically awkward for him to be so or because the scale of the issue is perhaps exacerbated via social media.

Hope you don't mind me asking, but feel free to tell me to sod off, if so.



I imagine the poll in question reflects the views of the ultra-orthodox community who always seem to be the most visible and vocal although they only represent a small minority within the Jewish community. I am an atheist but I remain a secular Jew and consider myself equally Jewish although I'm sure the orthodox would strongly disagree.

As a lifelong labour voter I do find myself torn by some of JC's alliances, especially his close ties with Hamas and many Jewish friends despise him because of that. On the other hand I'm a firm supporter of the majority of the labour manifesto and after considerable agonising have decided to continue voting labour for the greater good despite my reservations about many of Corbyn's views.

There are many people who balance being anti-zionist without being ant-semitic, there are in fact many Jews who are anti-zionist. My opinion is that Corbyn has gone too far in his anti-zionist crusade and has muddied the waters. This stance has been taken advantage of by some members with less pure motives.

In real life I don't really come across much anti-semitism other than the odd trope which occasionally comes up in casual conversation usually because of gaucheness, but I am always quick to point that sort of thing out, gently. Many educated people here in The Midlands still seem to believe some of the old conspiracy theories, until I put them right.





Ralph said trope.
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« Reply #21925 on: November 07, 2019, 11:23:18 PM »


I asked someone on facebook who was posting the usual negative shite about the tories to show me something good about labour. I wanted a reason 'to' vote rather than more reasons 'not to' vote.

Anyway they came up with this: https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/news/106806/glance-heres-everything-new-labour-announced-2019?fbclid=IwAR3-vvzXriXcLuYPNNFHwrXTvPiJbAuGOHVTBg_4ZNrfdxoKj9mPYJuIAds

I mean seriously. How the f**k can they possibly deliver any of it?

We start with net zero carbon emissions by 2030. Hmmmm..... I'm a huge fan of this but I don't see how it's feasible. Trying to get there is something hugely positive though so I'm all aboard

Pledged to nationalise the big six energy companies. Erm, how exactly? Even if they somehow find the money can they really force everyone to sell their shares? Why not just set up a new company and make it so good that everyone starts using it for energy and it eventually becomes 'the big one'?

Free or affordable green public transport. Love it. Jezza for PM!!!!

Free prescriptions. Yup, nice one.

4 day working week with no reduction in earnings? I mean come on. Does anyone think this is possible?

Halve the use of food banks? Again how exactly? Just shut half of them perhaps? Why not nationalise Tesco and Morrisons? That would fix the food problem.....

Anyway there's more of course but I really can't see how they can make these promises. Someone please explain to me how I'm wrong if I am.

Do they make these pledges knowing that they're going to lose anyway so they'll never get called liars for failing to deliver their promises?

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« Reply #21926 on: November 08, 2019, 07:21:48 AM »


I asked someone on facebook who was posting the usual negative shite about the tories to show me something good about labour. I wanted a reason 'to' vote rather than more reasons 'not to' vote.

Anyway they came up with this: https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/news/106806/glance-heres-everything-new-labour-announced-2019?fbclid=IwAR3-vvzXriXcLuYPNNFHwrXTvPiJbAuGOHVTBg_4ZNrfdxoKj9mPYJuIAds

I mean seriously. How the f**k can they possibly deliver any of it?

We start with net zero carbon emissions by 2030. Hmmmm..... I'm a huge fan of this but I don't see how it's feasible. Trying to get there is something hugely positive though so I'm all aboard

Pledged to nationalise the big six energy companies. Erm, how exactly? Even if they somehow find the money can they really force everyone to sell their shares? Why not just set up a new company and make it so good that everyone starts using it for energy and it eventually becomes 'the big one'?

Free or affordable green public transport. Love it. Jezza for PM!!!!

Free prescriptions. Yup, nice one.

4 day working week with no reduction in earnings? I mean come on. Does anyone think this is possible?

Halve the use of food banks? Again how exactly? Just shut half of them perhaps? Why not nationalise Tesco and Morrisons? That would fix the food problem.....

Anyway there's more of course but I really can't see how they can make these promises. Someone please explain to me how I'm wrong if I am.

Do they make these pledges knowing that they're going to lose anyway so they'll never get called liars for failing to deliver their promises?


Setting aside tory spending plans for a moment. The Labour plans put me off them. At the margins there's a discussion to be had about rates of tax for various earning levels and spending plans but the notion of borrow like crazy and significant renationalisation seems hard to accept as sensible.

If Govt and improvement were just about borrowing loads (with a presumption there are no consequences) then I'm sure it would have been done before now. Do people really think the Tories just like making life hard for lower income people. It makes no sense to believe that so its hard to make sense of supporting Labour and their wild ass plans. I'd quite like to be wrong as the idea of free everything and a world without aspiration is quite appealing.. Soma.
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« Reply #21927 on: November 08, 2019, 07:35:41 AM »

In my experience Momentum genuinely do believe that Tories enjoy torturing lower wage earners.   The average Labour voter normally has a more sensible view.
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« Reply #21928 on: November 08, 2019, 08:00:47 AM »

In my experience Momentum genuinely do believe that Tories enjoy torturing lower wage earners.   The average Labour voter normally has a more sensible view.

They also believe that a core Tory value is to 'give money to their billionaire mates' while working in a £70k a year job themselves.

I mean, if that's the case, that isn't good for the country, but it sounds like they are really good loyal mates, so there is that
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« Reply #21929 on: November 08, 2019, 08:11:33 AM »

Another off putting thing is the ludicrous 26bn extra cost of drugs claim after banging away for 3 years about the leave EU promises  about 350m to the NHS undermining the result. Someone needs a claim about something that is greater than a cost or benefit of 500m a week.
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