The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[Woodsey]

Question of the day

Should University education be free? Or should students pay back for their education afterwards?

I think it is ridiculous we are sending 50% population to university, a lot of those people degrees are not helping get a job afterwards. As a country we simply do not need people academically educated to that point, it would lot more useful in a lot of cases to vocational train people to fill gaps in the workforce.

I would go back to sending 20% ish and then we could look at bringing back grants. Of course this is electoral suicide because the demographic of floating voters is often people with children who have been told they should now be aspirational to send their children to university, when they probably didn't have that opportunity.

Somewhat agree, I think there needs to be more going to uni than when I went, but it's way too high now. I cringe at some of the numpties that I see getting into uni these days, they simply aren't up to it. Then they (not surprisingly) can't get a graduate type job when they finish, a lot of the time it's because they aren't up to scratch. They'd be better off learning some sort of trade or something, they would probably end up earning more cash too than at the bottom end of the 'graduate' pile.

Feel a bit hypocritical saying this as I got free uni education, but I think the system now is fair with not having to pay up front and slowly paying it off over time with min interest.

[TightEnd]

related to this point, i do find the apprencticeships policy very half hearted and in my experience not very well promoted at school

seen it first hand with my two boys 19 and 18. one is going to uni, one got an apprenticeship.

[DaveShoelace]

I think I was one of the first generation of the 'mickey mouse' degrees. Some of the thickest most unmotivated people I know have gone to university and the fact that there is estimated to be one graduate level job for every six graduates is pretty clear evidence that too many people go to university.

I personally consider university to have been the biggest opportunity cost in my life. It's easy saying with hindsight, but I think I would have been much better off just working for free for a year in an industry I wanted to work in. Most uni students will get in lots of debt, get no relevant experience in their chosen sector, learn stuff they will never use and leave after three years with ludicrously high expectations that can never be met.

Even worse, it seems that universities are becoming some of the most censorious and coddling environments in western society, which again is ill preparing students for the "real world".

But Longy is spot on, this is a harsh reality that no electorate will take.

[TightEnd]

when i was being recruited post university about 25 years ago on the milk round etc multiple employers (banks, accountants, multinationals etc) said to me

i paraphrase

"it doesn't matter what your degree is in, we just want you to have a 2:1+"

is this still the case nowadays in graduate recruitment, or is it more vocational these days?

[DaveShoelace]

Q of the day

One responsibility does this generation have to attone for the sins of their ancestors?

Is Germany now off the hook for what happened under Hitler, now that almost everyone involved in that regime is no longer with us?

[TightEnd]

no and yes. unusual questions that you don't hear much these days

think they were pretty soon after WW2 (though reparations continued for some time). can't hold them responsible for the actions of an extreme regime that then falls, and didn't need to wait for that generation to die out tbh

[TightEnd]

 'Prime Minister Jeremy Corbyn would worry me', says defence chief http://polho.me/1L4l9gi 

dont expect you would think he would say anything else, but interesting nonetheless

[aaron1867]

Question of the day

Should University education be free? Or should students pay back for their education afterwards?

I think it is ridiculous we are sending 50% population to university, a lot of those people degrees are not helping get a job afterwards. As a country we simply do not need people academically educated to that point, it would lot more useful in a lot of cases to vocational train people to fill gaps in the workforce.

I would go back to sending 20% ish and then we could look at bringing back grants. Of course this is electoral suicide because the demographic of floating voters is often people with children who have been told they should now be aspirational to send their children to university, when they probably didn't have that opportunity.

where do you get 50% from? Grants? There are still grants available for most students also.

I don't think University education should be free - But the reality is that the price of education is still too much. The £9k cap is in place in many Universities these days & even in "second" universities too. £9k = far too much.

[nirvana]

I'd like to see things where there is a massive unmet need supported and other things fully priced or more to pay for people to be trained to meet the real needs of society.

So, a nursing degree = free of charge. Vocational courses in trades where there are skills shortages - FOC.  A degree in classics fu, pay me, a degree in travel and tourism, fu pay me,  a degree in sports science fu pay me etc.

I don't want to be too philistine about this but, the lets all go to Uni model is flawed and it should be priced to actually achieve something worthwhile.  If people have hobbies they want to study then there's easy, cheap access to research just about any hobby these days

Politics is all about choices and I'd choose not to bother with trivia that people can do for themselves

[George2Loose]

All that'll happen is those degrees that are free will be hugely over subscribed.

[Jon MW]

I'd like to see things where there is a massive unmet need supported and other things fully priced or more to pay for people to be trained to meet the real needs of society.

So, a nursing degree = free of charge. Vocational courses in trades where there are skills shortages - FOC.  A degree in classics fu, pay me, a degree in travel and tourism, fu pay me,  a degree in sports science fu pay me etc.

I don't want to be too philistine about this but, the lets all go to Uni model is flawed and it should be priced to actually achieve something worthwhile.  If people have hobbies they want to study then there's easy, cheap access to research just about any hobby these days

Politics is all about choices and I'd choose not to bother with trivia that people can do for themselves

The problem with that model is that it doesn't really appreciate what a degree 'can' show.

The model of making everyone go will include plenty of people just doing 'hobby' degrees like Media Studies and the like and I agree there's very little intrinsic value to those. But if you can get a 2:1 or higher in a rigorous classics degree (or maths/physics/ several other examples) it shows you have the capacity for learning - it doesn't matter what you've learned. i.e. if you can do that - you can definitely learn how to run your own department/team/company - it's irrelevant what they actually do, you've shown you can pick it up anyway.

The problem is still just people who shouldn't be there because they're the ones doing the worthless degrees.

[nirvana]

I'd like to see things where there is a massive unmet need supported and other things fully priced or more to pay for people to be trained to meet the real needs of society.

So, a nursing degree = free of charge. Vocational courses in trades where there are skills shortages - FOC.  A degree in classics fu, pay me, a degree in travel and tourism, fu pay me,  a degree in sports science fu pay me etc.

I don't want to be too philistine about this but, the lets all go to Uni model is flawed and it should be priced to actually achieve something worthwhile.  If people have hobbies they want to study then there's easy, cheap access to research just about any hobby these days

Politics is all about choices and I'd choose not to bother with trivia that people can do for themselves

The problem with that model is that it doesn't really appreciate what a degree 'can' show.

The model of making everyone go will include plenty of people just doing 'hobby' degrees like Media Studies and the like and I agree there's very little intrinsic value to those. But if you can get a 2:1 or higher in a rigorous classics degree (or maths/physics/ several other examples) it shows you have the capacity for learning - it doesn't matter what you've learned. i.e. if you can do that - you can definitely learn how to run your own department/team/company - it's irrelevant what they actually do, you've shown you can pick it up anyway.

The problem is still just people who shouldn't be there because they're the ones doing the worthless degrees.

Totally understand this and it's a fine line making judgements about what is worthwhile and not. Still, I think our politicians are made to make tough choices and it's time they did rather than hang on to nonsensical shibboleths.

On balance though, I'm more interested, conceptually, that some courses of learning should be completely free and supported with decent grants

[TightEnd]

[DaveShoelace]

I'd like to see things where there is a massive unmet need supported and other things fully priced or more to pay for people to be trained to meet the real needs of society.

So, a nursing degree = free of charge. Vocational courses in trades where there are skills shortages - FOC.  A degree in classics fu, pay me, a degree in travel and tourism, fu pay me,  a degree in sports science fu pay me etc.

I don't want to be too philistine about this but, the lets all go to Uni model is flawed and it should be priced to actually achieve something worthwhile.  If people have hobbies they want to study then there's easy, cheap access to research just about any hobby these days

Politics is all about choices and I'd choose not to bother with trivia that people can do for themselves

I quite like this idea, if only to bring home to the student why they are actually going to University. It shows (rightly) that the big wide world only cares what you can do for it.

If I was a parent, the thought of my child excluding themselves from the workforce for three years and getting in a ton of debt, so they can study English literature, woud be pretty scary. I'm not sure many students or parents in this position currently question whether the degree will lead to anything meaningful.

[nirvana]

All that'll happen is those degrees that are free will be hugely over subscribed.

Yes, possibly but that would be a good thing until it isn't and then you modify emphasis to continue to benefit society as a whole on an ongoing basis.