The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[Woodsey]

If I bought a villa in Spain tomorrow, would I be allowed to live there and would I be a European?

You'll always be a European.  The rest depends on people we have no control over.  

.Possibly, possibly not once we are out .Depends if there is free movement of people or not .If it was tomorrow fine, nothing changing for over two uears

I think it will probably depend on the state of various economies cometh the hour of sitting down and thrashing out a deal.

Can't see Spain stopping the current EX-pat deal, based on the state of their desperate economy if it were today.

Can't see a huge amount changing between countries that have similar economies to ours it's a win win all around, the old EU basically. Think they will do less deals with the poorer economies to stop them coming and working here unless we need them and we give them work visas.

[PokerBroker]

^ agreed. i am a unionist but its tough to argue they shouldn't go and have a mandate to do so

ruth davidson v nicola S will be a hell of a scrap though

--

anyone been reading about the nationalist implications of the Ireland border, and the tensions that might stoke up from not having free movement north/south/north?

an unintended consequence for almost all leave voters i am sure, but scary stuff

I haven't read the rest of the thread from this point yet but yes I thought about this.  Both politically and socially having border patrols is likely to re-establish the troubles in my view.

What I didn't get was Gerry & Martin moaning about the state of the economy wasn't a tactic of the IRA to crash or at least damage the Economy when they were both probably on the army council of the PIRA?

And surely an out vote was there best chance at generating an all Ireland vote on unification?

I read recently there were OTR's wanting to go back who have been give assurances that they can and can't putting a border in place reignites there fighting spirit.

[doubleup]

If I bought a villa in Spain tomorrow, would I be allowed to live there and would I be a European?

You'll always be a European.  The rest depends on people we have no control over.  

.Possibly, possibly not once we are out .Depends if there is free movement of people or not .If it was tomorrow fine, nothing changing for over two uears

I think it will probably depend on the state of various economies cometh the hour of sitting down and thrashing out a deal.

Can't see Spain stopping the current EX-pat deal, based on the state of their desperate economy if it were today.

Can't see a huge amount changing between countries that have similar economies to ours it's a win win all around, the old EU basically. Think they will do less deals with the poorer economies to stop them coming and working here unless we need them and we give them work visas.

There aren't any "deals with the poorer economies" - its a single market and we are out of it.   And we face tariffs from all EU countries or none.  We have free movement with all EU members or none.

[Woodsey]

If I bought a villa in Spain tomorrow, would I be allowed to live there and would I be a European?

You'll always be a European.  The rest depends on people we have no control over.  

.Possibly, possibly not once we are out .Depends if there is free movement of people or not .If it was tomorrow fine, nothing changing for over two uears

I think it will probably depend on the state of various economies cometh the hour of sitting down and thrashing out a deal.

Can't see Spain stopping the current EX-pat deal, based on the state of their desperate economy if it were today.

Can't see a huge amount changing between countries that have similar economies to ours it's a win win all around, the old EU basically. Think they will do less deals with the poorer economies to stop them coming and working here unless we need them and we give them work visas.

There aren't any "deals with the poorer economies" - its a single market and we are out of it.   And we face tariffs from all EU countries or none.  We have free movement with all EU members or none.

Work visas don't work like that, individual countries within the EU have their own arrangements and criteria for issuing work visas for countries outside of the EU, just like we do. I see no reason why reciprocal deals can't be done with the countries we wish once we are outside the EU.

[doubleup]

If I bought a villa in Spain tomorrow, would I be allowed to live there and would I be a European?

You'll always be a European.  The rest depends on people we have no control over.  

.Possibly, possibly not once we are out .Depends if there is free movement of people or not .If it was tomorrow fine, nothing changing for over two uears

I think it will probably depend on the state of various economies cometh the hour of sitting down and thrashing out a deal.

Can't see Spain stopping the current EX-pat deal, based on the state of their desperate economy if it were today.

Can't see a huge amount changing between countries that have similar economies to ours it's a win win all around, the old EU basically. Think they will do less deals with the poorer economies to stop them coming and working here unless we need them and we give them work visas.

There aren't any "deals with the poorer economies" - its a single market and we are out of it.   And we face tariffs from all EU countries or none.  We have free movement with all EU members or none.

Work visas don't work like that, individual countries within the EU have their own arrangements and criteria for issuing work visas for countries outside of the EU, just like we do. I see no reason why reciprocal deals can't be done with the countries we wish once we are outside the EU.

So you are seriously suggesting that we go into the negotiations for terminating our relationship with the EU and deciding the future of Britons in Europe and Europeans in Britain with a policy of eg the Germans and Dutch are ok but the Romanians and Estonians are going home?

Bearing in mind that said Estonians and Romanians have to approve the agreement.

[Woodsey]

If I bought a villa in Spain tomorrow, would I be allowed to live there and would I be a European?

You'll always be a European.  The rest depends on people we have no control over.  

.Possibly, possibly not once we are out .Depends if there is free movement of people or not .If it was tomorrow fine, nothing changing for over two uears

I think it will probably depend on the state of various economies cometh the hour of sitting down and thrashing out a deal.

Can't see Spain stopping the current EX-pat deal, based on the state of their desperate economy if it were today.

Can't see a huge amount changing between countries that have similar economies to ours it's a win win all around, the old EU basically. Think they will do less deals with the poorer economies to stop them coming and working here unless we need them and we give them work visas.

There aren't any "deals with the poorer economies" - its a single market and we are out of it.   And we face tariffs from all EU countries or none.  We have free movement with all EU members or none.

Work visas don't work like that, individual countries within the EU have their own arrangements and criteria for issuing work visas for countries outside of the EU, just like we do. I see no reason why reciprocal deals can't be done with the countries we wish once we are outside the EU.

So you are seriously suggesting that we go into the negotiations for terminating our relationship with the EU and deciding the future of Britons in Europe and Europeans in Britain with a policy of eg the Germans and Dutch are ok but the Romanians and Estonians are going home?

Bearing in mind that said Estonians and Romanians have to approve the agreement.

Doubt they will send anyone home, they will just draw a line in the sand.

For general free movement yes all will have to be involved, that's fine. Work visas are different though and each country has their own criteria for non EU countries, so I don't see why that can't be discussed individually, we will see....

[Marky_Crash]

Am new to the forum and have just found out there are areas discussing matters other than poker...

Have read through some pages of the thread but 236 is a bit much in one go, some interesting points in the pages I have read!

The movement of people both into and out of the UK, to and from the EU and the rest of the world is going to be a much more complex issue to resolve than many think in my opinion. As has been pointed out, and for several reasons, we will have to deal with EU countries as a collective when implementing policies and legislation regarding the movement of people. If we as UK citizens want the freedom to come and go with little restrictions within the EU then we will have to make concessions allowing something similar in return to the EU which reflects the founding EU principal relating to the free movement of people.

The same general premise should apply to areas of employment and migration. If we want the option to work or live in the EU or retire to other countries etc we will have to offer something similar in return which is also congruent with the other founding principles of the EU. IMO the immigration figures are still going to be a long term project if a significant decrease in the figures is the desired objective. I also cannot see how this will be achieved without also shooting ourselves in the foot and restricting the options available to UK citizens. Increasing globalisation seems to be the natural direction of progressive change and social evolution, the EU referendum decision taken by UK voters seems greatly at odds with this natural direction of development.

The world got a little bit smaller for UK citizens after last nights vote IMO (not that I voted to stay). I didn't vote as I seen so many pros and cons in both options I couldn't come to a firm conclusion.

[Woodsey]

Am new to the forum and have just found out there are areas discussing matters other than poker...

Have read through some pages of the thread but 236 is a bit much in one go, some interesting points in the pages I have read!

The movement of people both into and out of the UK, to and from the EU and the rest of the world is going to be a much more complex issue to resolve than many think in my opinion. As has been pointed out, and for several reasons, we will have to deal with EU countries as a collective when implementing policies and legislation regarding the movement of people. If we as UK citizens want the freedom to come and go with little restrictions within the EU then we will have to make concessions allowing something similar in return to the EU which reflects the founding EU principal relating to the free movement of people.

The same general premise should apply to areas of employment and migration. If we want the option to work or live in the EU or retire to other countries etc we will have to offer something similar in return which is also congruent with the other founding principles of the EU. IMO the immigration figures are still going to be a long term project if a significant decrease in the figures is the desired objective. I also cannot see how this will be achieved without also shooting ourselves in the foot and restricting the options available to UK citizens. Increasing globalisation seems to be the natural direction of progressive change and social evolution, the EU referendum decision taken by UK voters seems greatly at odds with this natural direction of development.

The world got a little bit smaller for UK citizens after last nights vote IMO (not that I voted to stay). I didn't vote as I seen so many pros and cons in both options I couldn't come to a firm conclusion.

Fair enough, but for work permits/visas etc we do not deal with them as a collective, it's individual.

'agreement with the EU – the right to work in an EU country mainly depends on the laws of that country, unless they are members of an EU national's family'

http://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=470

Although it looks like the EU are poking their nose in again and trying to change that too at some point in the future.

[Marky_Crash]

Am new to the forum and have just found out there are areas discussing matters other than poker...

Have read through some pages of the thread but 236 is a bit much in one go, some interesting points in the pages I have read!

The movement of people both into and out of the UK, to and from the EU and the rest of the world is going to be a much more complex issue to resolve than many think in my opinion. As has been pointed out, and for several reasons, we will have to deal with EU countries as a collective when implementing policies and legislation regarding the movement of people. If we as UK citizens want the freedom to come and go with little restrictions within the EU then we will have to make concessions allowing something similar in return to the EU which reflects the founding EU principal relating to the free movement of people.

The same general premise should apply to areas of employment and migration. If we want the option to work or live in the EU or retire to other countries etc we will have to offer something similar in return which is also congruent with the other founding principles of the EU. IMO the immigration figures are still going to be a long term project if a significant decrease in the figures is the desired objective. I also cannot see how this will be achieved without also shooting ourselves in the foot and restricting the options available to UK citizens. Increasing globalisation seems to be the natural direction of progressive change and social evolution, the EU referendum decision taken by UK voters seems greatly at odds with this natural direction of development.

The world got a little bit smaller for UK citizens after last nights vote IMO (not that I voted to stay). I didn't vote as I seen so many pros and cons in both options I couldn't come to a firm conclusion.

Fair enough, but for work permits/visas etc we do not deal with them as a collective, it's individual.

'agreement with the EU – the right to work in an EU country mainly depends on the laws of that country, unless they are members of an EU national's family'

http://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=470

Although it looks like the EU are poking their nose in again and trying to change that too at some point in the future.

I meant this more regarding any agreements the UK may be looking to put in place with the EU via any exit agreement. In that light we would need to deal with them as a collective. If no significant agreements are made then yeah I would concede that once out of the EU the option would be there to deal with nations within the EU individually. Not sure if there would ultimately be discussions to come to agreement in these areas with the EU block as a collective though to simplify matters.

[Woodsey]

Am new to the forum and have just found out there are areas discussing matters other than poker...

Have read through some pages of the thread but 236 is a bit much in one go, some interesting points in the pages I have read!

The movement of people both into and out of the UK, to and from the EU and the rest of the world is going to be a much more complex issue to resolve than many think in my opinion. As has been pointed out, and for several reasons, we will have to deal with EU countries as a collective when implementing policies and legislation regarding the movement of people. If we as UK citizens want the freedom to come and go with little restrictions within the EU then we will have to make concessions allowing something similar in return to the EU which reflects the founding EU principal relating to the free movement of people.

The same general premise should apply to areas of employment and migration. If we want the option to work or live in the EU or retire to other countries etc we will have to offer something similar in return which is also congruent with the other founding principles of the EU. IMO the immigration figures are still going to be a long term project if a significant decrease in the figures is the desired objective. I also cannot see how this will be achieved without also shooting ourselves in the foot and restricting the options available to UK citizens. Increasing globalisation seems to be the natural direction of progressive change and social evolution, the EU referendum decision taken by UK voters seems greatly at odds with this natural direction of development.

The world got a little bit smaller for UK citizens after last nights vote IMO (not that I voted to stay). I didn't vote as I seen so many pros and cons in both options I couldn't come to a firm conclusion.

Fair enough, but for work permits/visas etc we do not deal with them as a collective, it's individual.

'agreement with the EU – the right to work in an EU country mainly depends on the laws of that country, unless they are members of an EU national's family'

http://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=470

Although it looks like the EU are poking their nose in again and trying to change that too at some point in the future.

I meant this more regarding any agreements the UK may be looking to put in place with the EU via any exit agreement. In that light we would need to deal with them as a collective. If no significant agreements are made then yeah I would concede that once out of the EU the option would be there to deal with nations within the EU individually. Not sure if there would ultimately be discussions to come to agreement in these areas with the EU block as a collective though to simplify matters.

I doubt we would mate, I say they would avoid that where possible or it won't really change where things are now with high immigration from eastern euro countries.

They preferred choice would be the richer countries first and eastern euro countries down the list.

[Marky_Crash]

Am new to the forum and have just found out there are areas discussing matters other than poker...

Have read through some pages of the thread but 236 is a bit much in one go, some interesting points in the pages I have read!

The movement of people both into and out of the UK, to and from the EU and the rest of the world is going to be a much more complex issue to resolve than many think in my opinion. As has been pointed out, and for several reasons, we will have to deal with EU countries as a collective when implementing policies and legislation regarding the movement of people. If we as UK citizens want the freedom to come and go with little restrictions within the EU then we will have to make concessions allowing something similar in return to the EU which reflects the founding EU principal relating to the free movement of people.

The same general premise should apply to areas of employment and migration. If we want the option to work or live in the EU or retire to other countries etc we will have to offer something similar in return which is also congruent with the other founding principles of the EU. IMO the immigration figures are still going to be a long term project if a significant decrease in the figures is the desired objective. I also cannot see how this will be achieved without also shooting ourselves in the foot and restricting the options available to UK citizens. Increasing globalisation seems to be the natural direction of progressive change and social evolution, the EU referendum decision taken by UK voters seems greatly at odds with this natural direction of development.

The world got a little bit smaller for UK citizens after last nights vote IMO (not that I voted to stay). I didn't vote as I seen so many pros and cons in both options I couldn't come to a firm conclusion.

Fair enough, but for work permits/visas etc we do not deal with them as a collective, it's individual.

'agreement with the EU – the right to work in an EU country mainly depends on the laws of that country, unless they are members of an EU national's family'

http://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=470

Although it looks like the EU are poking their nose in again and trying to change that too at some point in the future.

I meant this more regarding any agreements the UK may be looking to put in place with the EU via any exit agreement. In that light we would need to deal with them as a collective. If no significant agreements are made then yeah I would concede that once out of the EU the option would be there to deal with nations within the EU individually. Not sure if there would ultimately be discussions to come to agreement in these areas with the EU block as a collective though to simplify matters.

I doubt we would mate, I say they would avoid that where possible or it won't really change where things are now with high immigration from eastern euro countries.

They preferred choice would be the richer countries first and eastern euro countries down the list.

Yeah, you could well be on the money there... By the sounds of it the EU doesn't want to overly smoothen our path out of the EU by making such deals either so as not to make it seem overly easy to other countries thinking of abandoning ship.

[aaron1867]

Brexit is the stuff of nightmares - removing Jeremy Corbyn won't help says this article

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2016/06/brexit-stuff-nightmares-removing-jeremy-corbyn-wont-help

I said weeks ago that if LEAVE won the vote by a narrow margin that Corbyn would be to blame. He couldn't have handled it any worse. Giving a half hearted response to this and showing clear signs that he wasn't fussed about the outcome. To me, this is a man who wants to take his chance in a snap general election. I won't vote for him, I want him out & he has really cost the remain campaign.

People celebrating Cameron is gone too, despise the tories myself, but he is a far more trusting character, in my eyes, than Blunder Boris. Boris loves the fame, loves the limelight, loves the money and blunders every day.

Absolutely lol at some of the leave voters though on BBC/ITV today. Some of them actually saying they wished they voted in!

I've become very bitter about this. It seems complete madness to leave. I'm just hoping that these hardline leave supporters get to experience themselves the reality of their vote in months and years to come.

[neeko]

Net migration figures are going to get worse not better.

If Brits can't leave the uk and live in Spain then the net change could be 100k worse, also the state of their pensions are key here, with a much lower stock market, they can't afford a costa villa so won't move.

[DropTheHammer]

I too live in a lovely old Roman town which 10 years ago if you stood in the Market Place, you would hear just English spoken bar the odd tourist. Now if you closed your eyes and listened, you could be anywhere in Europe, at any time of the day.

I don't know for sure whether you feel that this is a bad thing, but voting out is not going to change this for a long time. In fact it will get much worse as may more EU immigrants will come over the next two years while they can still move freely. And all the ones that are already here and want to stay, will be allowed to stay so it's unlikely to ever get back to some 1960s England that many of the older generation seem to clamor for.

[DropTheHammer]

In 20 years time the EU might not exist.  Will all the remain voters then say 'we were miles ahead of the game leaving when we did'?

The probably will, as we sit there and watch Putin destabilize all those ex eastern bloc countries, some possibly warring with each other.