The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[RickBFA]

God for jobs tho

completely and utterly non-productive jobs

Probably more productive than being in charge of the monthly commute from Brussels to Strasbourg.

In any event, the 'new' jobs will be created in an area where they are working toward improving our future. Creating our new trading relationship with the world at large.

it just isn't possible for a leaver to admit any aspect of their regressive project is negative, is it?

This made me chuckle from someone with an almost evangelical zeal in their belief in the EU.

[PokerBroker]

God for jobs tho

completely and utterly non-productive jobs

Probably more productive than being in charge of the monthly commute from Brussels to Strasbourg.

In any event, the 'new' jobs will be created in an area where they are working toward improving our future. Creating our new trading relationship with the world at large.

it just isn't possible for a leaver to admit any aspect of their regressive project is negative, is it?

What is so good about the European Union?  

You seem to have some sort of hardon for bureaucracy, I don't think anyone here has stated their wouldn't be any short term fall out, but for the majority of leave voters on here the long term gains benefit the majority.  

Democracy is king and the fact that democratic will of the people isn't being put at the top of the agenda is why we find ourselves in this position.  

They help protect against members of the Eu, having differing legislation that collides. Increased rights for workers/consumers. Freedom of movement, freedom of work.

Honestly what is your newly democratic Britain going to do? The democratic will of the people follows whatever Murdoch puts in the Sun. Probably his suggestion to Cameron in all those weekly meetings. Mythical sovereignty to watch the same vested interests have even more control. I know most leave voters think it was right, hence the way they voted. But just telling me it's going to be good when they actual outcome is unknown seems silly. Regurgitating the tagline about short term pain for long term gain is largely futile when the long could be 2-20 years.

When I google what is the Eu good for then I find a list of reasonable answers, some more persuasive than others, and when I google is it bad I get lists of nonsense and gibberish from loons. If I ask why you think the EU is bad I'm sure I'll be told about over regulation and immigration. People like to say the Eu has too many rules, when I ask them to highlight them they can't. They will simply always complain about the regulator,  whether it be the council, government or European. The examples go from myths to outright lies but ignore such beautiful examples as equine passports needing identification silhouettes. I do not see this as a triumph for democracy due to the nature of the campaigns from both sides and the potential swing of leave voters who said they would change their mind. I think the success of the Leave campaign should really worry anyone interested in British politics because we have just seen the lies and propaganda work.

Britain as an open economy gained a whole lot from negotiating as part of the union where some markets weren't so open. This is a huge economic plus which has been lost by the Leave campaingers. Hopefully we find a way to work something out or the European Union is forced to negotiate from a weak position.

Loons of course it's the loons.  

Did you read the article I posted that was penned by the RMT Assistant General Secretary Steve Hedley?

Have you heard of TTIP?
Have you heard of the European Mortgage Credit Directive?
Workers rights?  Really.  They have sure helped the workers in countries of Southern Europe.  

Why not EFTA? Seems the best of both worlds.  

I have no issue with immigration, my issue is when we have beggars from Romania/Albania coming here with no intention of working but instead to operate in criminal gangs that are involved in all manner of bad shit.   Of course those who love in middle class suburbia are probably sheltered by this and don't experience what actually happens on the street.  

If it was a choice between an immigrant coming here to work and a job shy born and bread brit I'd take the migrant every single time.  

No, Yes, Yes but briefly/hazy understanding. Debatable ofc, not sure we can blame the EU on mass unemployment in specific countries as much as we would like to. The euro is but I still think individual countries have to take responsibility for their own fiscal policy.

 I don't think EFTA is on the cards, or would be what the democratic power of the people wanted. Norway had to pay a heavy price to get in, one so heavy they regret it.

Having read more about the EMCD thing it does seem particularly terrible. How did it get ratified when it seems so obviously flawed? Thanks for the info, I certainly didn't clock on to the implications on first reading.

edit: I only put loons because I put into google, what is good about the EU and got a bunch of normal pages/lists from campaigners/bloggers. When I changed the good to bad it went into a full text diatribe. I'm also really well protected in my middle class bubble in Hungary lol. I suppose living in Stockton for a few years really makes you part of the prawn sarnie brigade.

I'm not getting at you personally fella, I have no idea if your part of the prawn sarnie brigade either :-)

I just get annoyed when I see terms like loons and racists floated about.  I might be on the verge of loon tbf.  I spent a large part of my younger days taking direct action against racists and fascists so to be tarred as some sort of nob head racist gets right on my goat.  Again not saying you said this, but the language from remainers is pretty terrible.  My facebook for example is alight with people misguided who just repeat ad nauseum what they are told by the media rips my knitting. 

What particularly annoys me is those on the left who find more in common with countries in South America than they do on their own doorsteps.  They go on about open door policy but can go back to their comfy lifestyles at the end of the day in middle class suburbia.  Those of us who still live in working class areas that are seeing abject poverty day in day out and seeing all local services on the brink due to overuse.  We are not blaming the migrants for this we blame successive Labour and Tory governments.  But we need to realise that in certain areas there are problems with migrants.  That is why UKIP are on the surge, they play to the fears.  Labour have refused to listen to these concerns and that is why they are on the ropes. 

[PokerBroker]

This is really quite good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3va50mM_kmY

[PokerBroker]

This is better again, I can't see anyone watching this and thinking that Corbyn isn't the best option of hwat is on offer. 

http://gmmuk.com/why-wasnt-this-speech-shown-on-mainstream-media/

[PokerBroker]

Lifted this from facebook, it's y a guy called Loki.  He's a community activist/youth worker/reformed alcoholic and drug user and he's also a rapper.


When your point of origin is a deprived community you don’t become aware of what you are being deprived of until you have someone else to compare yourself to. For me it was my first trip to the West End of Glasgow to see a child psychologist. In this area of town the streets were clean and there was no shortage of transport options.

From that day to this the deficit in experience between social classes has become gradually more apparent though the mechanisms to discuss it have all but disappeared.
Whether placing your blind faith in the advice of a doctor, being assessed or disciplined by a teacher, interviewed by a social worker or children’s panel or cuffed by a police officer and advised by a lawyer before appearing in front of a judge: class is the elephant in every room.

The editors and journalists that shape your perception of the world and the image of your community. The producers who commission the radio and TV shows that present you as a caricature of a stereotype. The left-leaning activists, politicians, trade unionists, community artists and Third Sector reps who don’t urinate without filing an expense claim – all claiming to speak on your behalf – are all part of the same dysfunctional system.

A multi-billion pound poverty management system in which one class of people’s continued success and dominance is predicated on the perpetual malaise of those at the bottom.
Now we're seeing what happens when those at the bottom start waking up to that fact.

Since Brexit multiple crises have been declared simultaneously by panicked liberals who have suddenly been confronted with the harsh and bitter country everyone else has been living in for 40 years. It’s been an infuriating fortnight watching one Guardian subscriber after the other lament how the country has gone to the dogs – by dogs they mean working class – and that things will have to change.

Unsurprisingly the only thing that doesn’t have to change, ostensibly, is the liberals themselves and the condescending manner in which they conduct their exclusive discourse; issuing declaration after declaration about topics they have little experience of, like immigration, from gated Caucasian communities where migrants and refugees are only ever seen on the pages of broadsheet newspapers at the breakfast table.

My deepest sympathies have been with this specialist class of affluent professionals, aspiring students and terrible artists, so heartbroken they are to discover Great Britain is not the country Jeremy Vine describes. Radio phone-ins about the pros and cons of refrigerating coleslaw seem so trite and indulgent in the face of this emerging dystopia.

Luckily, the UK liberal intelligentsia is quite culturally insulated and has enough influence and privilege to create its own version of reality where twibbons, safety pins and gender neutral gingerbread products are all that’s needed to resolve the crisis.

A deluge of condescending, patronising and emotionally hysterical social media posts and online campaigns have been launched as middle class people everywhere move quickly to enter and dominate conversations about issues everyone else has been dealing with for years.

Not satisfied that this situation was ironic enough, thousands of lefties took to Facebook to express their disgust at the ‘dirty’ ‘vermin’ ‘Brexit’ ‘scum’ for using political anger and frustration as an excuse for dehumanising large sections of the population.

Thankfully in Scotland we don’t have a problem with class inequality.

[rfgqqabc]

Lifted this from facebook, it's y a guy called Loki.  He's a community activist/youth worker/reformed alcoholic and drug user and he's also a rapper.


When your point of origin is a deprived community you don’t become aware of what you are being deprived of until you have someone else to compare yourself to. For me it was my first trip to the West End of Glasgow to see a child psychologist. In this area of town the streets were clean and there was no shortage of transport options.

From that day to this the deficit in experience between social classes has become gradually more apparent though the mechanisms to discuss it have all but disappeared.
Whether placing your blind faith in the advice of a doctor, being assessed or disciplined by a teacher, interviewed by a social worker or children’s panel or cuffed by a police officer and advised by a lawyer before appearing in front of a judge: class is the elephant in every room.

The editors and journalists that shape your perception of the world and the image of your community. The producers who commission the radio and TV shows that present you as a caricature of a stereotype. The left-leaning activists, politicians, trade unionists, community artists and Third Sector reps who don’t urinate without filing an expense claim – all claiming to speak on your behalf – are all part of the same dysfunctional system.

A multi-billion pound poverty management system in which one class of people’s continued success and dominance is predicated on the perpetual malaise of those at the bottom.
Now we're seeing what happens when those at the bottom start waking up to that fact.

Since Brexit multiple crises have been declared simultaneously by panicked liberals who have suddenly been confronted with the harsh and bitter country everyone else has been living in for 40 years. It’s been an infuriating fortnight watching one Guardian subscriber after the other lament how the country has gone to the dogs – by dogs they mean working class – and that things will have to change.

Unsurprisingly the only thing that doesn’t have to change, ostensibly, is the liberals themselves and the condescending manner in which they conduct their exclusive discourse; issuing declaration after declaration about topics they have little experience of, like immigration, from gated Caucasian communities where migrants and refugees are only ever seen on the pages of broadsheet newspapers at the breakfast table.

My deepest sympathies have been with this specialist class of affluent professionals, aspiring students and terrible artists, so heartbroken they are to discover Great Britain is not the country Jeremy Vine describes. Radio phone-ins about the pros and cons of refrigerating coleslaw seem so trite and indulgent in the face of this emerging dystopia.

Luckily, the UK liberal intelligentsia is quite culturally insulated and has enough influence and privilege to create its own version of reality where twibbons, safety pins and gender neutral gingerbread products are all that’s needed to resolve the crisis.

A deluge of condescending, patronising and emotionally hysterical social media posts and online campaigns have been launched as middle class people everywhere move quickly to enter and dominate conversations about issues everyone else has been dealing with for years.

Not satisfied that this situation was ironic enough, thousands of lefties took to Facebook to express their disgust at the ‘dirty’ ‘vermin’ ‘Brexit’ ‘scum’ for using political anger and frustration as an excuse for dehumanising large sections of the population.

Thankfully in Scotland we don’t have a problem with class inequality.

I'm not sure leaving the EU will do much more than be a middle finger. If people accept this as being some sort of revolution they are part of the problem. The exit will just be a further excuse to exercise more control and give even less to the people who need it most due to the economic problems we will face. It was a very interesting post and whilst I agree with large parts of it, I'm not sure if forced verbosity is a way of truly bringing people round to your cause. We speak or write only to be understood. I have felt largely condescended by both sides throughout this. Whether it is people telling me everything will be okay because Britain is Britain or whether people tell me the sky is falling. You actually provided a lot more information today than many people who I have seen go on and on about things they know nothing about (You could say this includes me, but I feel like I question more than state).

Regarding TTIP, who is this good for in the EU? I see very few positives out of the whole thing for anyone on this side. I worry that leaving the EU just forces us into a version of this that will be negotiated quicker (even though none of our politicians seem to want it.)

[BigAdz]

God for jobs tho

completely and utterly non-productive jobs

Probably more productive than being in charge of the monthly commute from Brussels to Strasbourg.

In any event, the 'new' jobs will be created in an area where they are working toward improving our future. Creating our new trading relationship with the world at large.

it just isn't possible for a leaver to admit any aspect of their regressive project is negative, is it?

I'm in the leave camp and there are plenty of things that worry me.
Contrary to your post,
I have yet to see a remainer say anything vaguely positive about leaving

rofl - why should remainers say something positive?  It's leavers who lied to the country in the campaign, its leavers who are telling immigrants that they are going to be sent home and its leavers who are living in fantasy land about this country's future prospects.  

Mature.

Let's pigeon hole everyone.

I guess everyone that voted remain must be a knob too....

[TightEnd]

"Farage was the frontman for the biggest Establishment stitch-up in a generation"

written by the green party's Lucas

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/nigel-farage-ukip-leader-stitch-up-brexit-eu-referendum-biggest-in-a-generation-a7119121.html

[TightEnd]

James O'Brien Verified account
‏@mrjamesob

Farage will be back. Not as quickly as last time but he needs to distance himself from the reality of Brexit so he can claim betrayal later.

[TightEnd]

The 2.8 million unlikely voters who made Brexit happen http://bv.ms/29IbQJu

Click to see full-size image.

[TightEnd]

The 2.8 million unlikely voters who made Brexit happen http://bv.ms/29IbQJu

Click to see full-size image.

James Morris ‏@JamesDMorris

Evidence Corbyn's plan to win non-voters more viable (can be motivated), or even less viable (they're right wing)?

Samuel Fawcett ‏@SamFawcett92

Chimes with my experience of non-voters. They tend to hate a) migrants b) politicians. Not a progressive majority.

[TightEnd]

Momentum, anti-Semitism and the problem with Labour's grassroots activists

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2016/07/momentum-anti-semitism-and-problem-labours-grassroots-activists

[TightEnd]

ConHome Poll Shows Neck and Neck Race

[TightEnd]

We are heading for recession – it's crucial the right people are in charge. By vince cable

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/economy/2016/06/we-are-heading-next-recession-its-crucial-right-people-are-charge

[TightEnd]

Labour coup enters its ‘last throw of the dice’ as Tom Watson turns on Corbyn http://bit.ly/29iDjEf