The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[Jon MW]

Brexit negotiations are going to prove nigh on impossible. Half the country will be furious at the outcome whatever it is.

Labour should play the long game and let the Tories fuck up Brexit and only go for another election after it's a done deal. Tories will be unelectable for a generation.

Must of the stuff which frightens me about Brexit won't be an issue under a left wing government, so let the Tories get on with committing electoral suicide and I can look forward to socialism for the rest of my life.

Socialism for the rest of your life is a little optimistic.

I give myself 20 years tops.

Labour will win the next 3 elections unless they shoot themselves in the foot. Not impossible on past form, I grant you.

Surely even if they get in, they don't last if they keep that manifesto.  They either cause economic problems* or massively let down big groups of people, who will then turn on them.  People still go on about the Lib Dems and Univesity Fees even though they were the minority partner.

Can't see how it ends well for either party.

* and your premis is that we are already in a state because of Brexit.
   

I think it's far more likely they increase tax more for the rich than fail to deliver their manifesto pledges.

Don't you think it's most likely that to deliver their manifesto pledges they have to increase taxes for everyone?

And prices go up to pay for the increased corporation taxes?

So everyone has less money in their pocket and everything is less affordable. Is that going to win multiple consecutive elections?

[The Camel]

Brexit negotiations are going to prove nigh on impossible. Half the country will be furious at the outcome whatever it is.

Labour should play the long game and let the Tories fuck up Brexit and only go for another election after it's a done deal. Tories will be unelectable for a generation.

Must of the stuff which frightens me about Brexit won't be an issue under a left wing government, so let the Tories get on with committing electoral suicide and I can look forward to socialism for the rest of my life.

Socialism for the rest of your life is a little optimistic.

I give myself 20 years tops.

Labour will win the next 3 elections unless they shoot themselves in the foot. Not impossible on past form, I grant you.

Surely even if they get in, they don't last if they keep that manifesto.  They either cause economic problems* or massively let down big groups of people, who will then turn on them.  People still go on about the Lib Dems and Univesity Fees even though they were the minority partner.

Can't see how it ends well for either party.

* and your premis is that we are already in a state because of Brexit.
   

I think it's far more likely they increase tax more for the rich than fail to deliver their manifesto pledges.

Don't you think it's most likely that to deliver their manifesto pledges they have to increase taxes for everyone?

And prices go up to pay for the increased corporation taxes?

So everyone has less money in their pocket and everything is less affordable. Is that going to win multiple consecutive elections?

The poor will have more money in absolute terms anyway, as the minimum wage will have risen. So they can afford to pay slightly more tax.

But on the whole, I'm sure it will be the top 5% who will be expected to pay the bills.

[Doobs]

Brexit negotiations are going to prove nigh on impossible. Half the country will be furious at the outcome whatever it is.

Labour should play the long game and let the Tories fuck up Brexit and only go for another election after it's a done deal. Tories will be unelectable for a generation.

Must of the stuff which frightens me about Brexit won't be an issue under a left wing government, so let the Tories get on with committing electoral suicide and I can look forward to socialism for the rest of my life.

Socialism for the rest of your life is a little optimistic.

I give myself 20 years tops.

Labour will win the next 3 elections unless they shoot themselves in the foot. Not impossible on past form, I grant you.

Surely even if they get in, they don't last if they keep that manifesto.  They either cause economic problems* or massively let down big groups of people, who will then turn on them.  People still go on about the Lib Dems and Univesity Fees even though they were the minority partner.

Can't see how it ends well for either party.

* and your premis is that we are already in a state because of Brexit.
   

I think it's far more likely they increase tax more for the rich than fail to deliver their manifesto pledges.

Don't you think it's most likely that to deliver their manifesto pledges they have to increase taxes for everyone?

And prices go up to pay for the increased corporation taxes?

So everyone has less money in their pocket and everything is less affordable. Is that going to win multiple consecutive elections?

The poor will have more money in absolute terms anyway, as the minimum wage will have risen. So they can afford to pay slightly more tax.

But on the whole, I'm sure it will be the top 5% who will be expected to pay the bills.

Aye, 12 months ago I was bombarded with people saying "why are you picking faults, are you one of the 1%?".  I'd also suggest the poor won't be much richer as in amongst all that spending, they forgot to reverse Tory benefit cuts.

Nationalisation seems very expensive for little benefit in the short term.  And if you want to win elections, you have to have more than a passing interest in what happens next?

[The Camel]

Brexit negotiations are going to prove nigh on impossible. Half the country will be furious at the outcome whatever it is.

Labour should play the long game and let the Tories fuck up Brexit and only go for another election after it's a done deal. Tories will be unelectable for a generation.

Must of the stuff which frightens me about Brexit won't be an issue under a left wing government, so let the Tories get on with committing electoral suicide and I can look forward to socialism for the rest of my life.

Socialism for the rest of your life is a little optimistic.

I give myself 20 years tops.

Labour will win the next 3 elections unless they shoot themselves in the foot. Not impossible on past form, I grant you.

Surely even if they get in, they don't last if they keep that manifesto.  They either cause economic problems* or massively let down big groups of people, who will then turn on them.  People still go on about the Lib Dems and Univesity Fees even though they were the minority partner.

Can't see how it ends well for either party.

* and your premis is that we are already in a state because of Brexit.
   

I think it's far more likely they increase tax more for the rich than fail to deliver their manifesto pledges.

Don't you think it's most likely that to deliver their manifesto pledges they have to increase taxes for everyone?

And prices go up to pay for the increased corporation taxes?

So everyone has less money in their pocket and everything is less affordable. Is that going to win multiple consecutive elections?

The poor will have more money in absolute terms anyway, as the minimum wage will have risen. So they can afford to pay slightly more tax.

But on the whole, I'm sure it will be the top 5% who will be expected to pay the bills.

Aye, 12 months ago I was bombarded with people saying "why are you picking faults, are you one of the 1%?".  I'd also suggest the poor won't be much richer as in amongst all that spending, they forgot to reverse Tory benefit cuts.

Nationalisation seems very expensive for little benefit in the short term.  And if you want to win elections, you have to have more than a passing interest in what happens next?

Rail nationalisation will be free. Just don't renew the contracts of the franchises when they run out.

It's a national disgrace that utilities whose infrastructure was paid for by the public purse were sold off at a fraction of their true worth so capitalists could make a quick buck. I won't shed many tears if these carpet baggers lose their investment

[RickBFA]

I bet the Tories start nicking some of Labour's policies now.

Axing tuition fees is the obvious one. But putting utilities back into public ownership (obv won't say they are nationalising them) is another possibility.

Honestly can't see Tories doing those things.

Axing tuition fees is very expensive.

Utilities back into public ownership goes against basic Tory tendencies.

They would be better putting funds into sorting out social care - we need that sorting no matter which party you support.

They desperately need to work on improving presentation and making their campaign a positive one.

Anyone in a sales environment knows you concentrate on your own strengths not constantly slagging the opposite.

[BigAdz]

I bet the Tories start nicking some of Labour's policies now.

Axing tuition fees is the obvious one. But putting utilities back into public ownership (obv won't say they are nationalising them) is another possibility.

Honestly can't see Tories doing those things.

Axing tuition fees is very expensive.

Utilities back into public ownership goes against basic Tory tendencies.

They would be better putting funds into sorting out social care - we need that sorting no matter which party you support.

They desperately need to work on improving presentation and making their campaign a positive one.

Anyone in a sales environment knows you concentrate on your own strengths not constantly slagging the opposite.

Beautifully summed up.

[The Camel]

I bet the Tories start nicking some of Labour's policies now.

Axing tuition fees is the obvious one. But putting utilities back into public ownership (obv won't say they are nationalising them) is another possibility.

Honestly can't see Tories doing those things.

Axing tuition fees is very expensive.

Utilities back into public ownership goes against basic Tory tendencies.

They would be better putting funds into sorting out social care - we need that sorting no matter which party you support.

They desperately need to work on improving presentation and making their campaign a positive one.

Anyone in a sales environment knows you concentrate on your own strengths not constantly slagging the opposite.

But they didn't have anything positive to offer, so how could they highlight it?

Cutting tax for the rich and big corporations isn't going to win votes from a couple who are trying to feed their 3 kids from food banks.

For the Tories to have any glimmer of hope at the next election they need to roll back austerity PDQ. There's a new, politically connected group of voters who are sick of being forgotten and downtrodden.

The Tories opened the box with the Brexit vote. They can't shut it now when it's politically inconvenient.

[DungBeetle]

Brexit negotiations are going to prove nigh on impossible. Half the country will be furious at the outcome whatever it is.

Labour should play the long game and let the Tories fuck up Brexit and only go for another election after it's a done deal. Tories will be unelectable for a generation.

Must of the stuff which frightens me about Brexit won't be an issue under a left wing government, so let the Tories get on with committing electoral suicide and I can look forward to socialism for the rest of my life.

Socialism for the rest of your life is a little optimistic.

I give myself 20 years tops.

Labour will win the next 3 elections unless they shoot themselves in the foot. Not impossible on past form, I grant you.

Surely even if they get in, they don't last if they keep that manifesto.  They either cause economic problems* or massively let down big groups of people, who will then turn on them.  People still go on about the Lib Dems and Univesity Fees even though they were the minority partner.

Can't see how it ends well for either party.

* and your premis is that we are already in a state because of Brexit.
   

I think it's far more likely they increase tax more for the rich than fail to deliver their manifesto pledges.

Don't you think it's most likely that to deliver their manifesto pledges they have to increase taxes for everyone?

And prices go up to pay for the increased corporation taxes?

So everyone has less money in their pocket and everything is less affordable. Is that going to win multiple consecutive elections?

The poor will have more money in absolute terms anyway, as the minimum wage will have risen. So they can afford to pay slightly more tax.

But on the whole, I'm sure it will be the top 5% who will be expected to pay the bills.

Even if you smash the top 5% it is just tinkering around the edges.  The reality is if you want to have (for example) free tuition fees and a good social care programme then we all need to pay.  I guess and alternative is abolishing the State pension.

[Doobs]

Brexit negotiations are going to prove nigh on impossible. Half the country will be furious at the outcome whatever it is.

Labour should play the long game and let the Tories fuck up Brexit and only go for another election after it's a done deal. Tories will be unelectable for a generation.

Must of the stuff which frightens me about Brexit won't be an issue under a left wing government, so let the Tories get on with committing electoral suicide and I can look forward to socialism for the rest of my life.

Socialism for the rest of your life is a little optimistic.

I give myself 20 years tops.

Labour will win the next 3 elections unless they shoot themselves in the foot. Not impossible on past form, I grant you.

Surely even if they get in, they don't last if they keep that manifesto.  They either cause economic problems* or massively let down big groups of people, who will then turn on them.  People still go on about the Lib Dems and Univesity Fees even though they were the minority partner.

Can't see how it ends well for either party.

* and your premis is that we are already in a state because of Brexit.
   

I think it's far more likely they increase tax more for the rich than fail to deliver their manifesto pledges.

Don't you think it's most likely that to deliver their manifesto pledges they have to increase taxes for everyone?

And prices go up to pay for the increased corporation taxes?

So everyone has less money in their pocket and everything is less affordable. Is that going to win multiple consecutive elections?

The poor will have more money in absolute terms anyway, as the minimum wage will have risen. So they can afford to pay slightly more tax.

But on the whole, I'm sure it will be the top 5% who will be expected to pay the bills.

Aye, 12 months ago I was bombarded with people saying "why are you picking faults, are you one of the 1%?".  I'd also suggest the poor won't be much richer as in amongst all that spending, they forgot to reverse Tory benefit cuts.

Nationalisation seems very expensive for little benefit in the short term.  And if you want to win elections, you have to have more than a passing interest in what happens next?

Rail nationalisation will be free. Just don't renew the contracts of the franchises when they run out.

It's a national disgrace that utilities whose infrastructure was paid for by the public purse were sold off at a fraction of their true worth so capitalists could make a quick buck. I won't shed many tears if these carpet baggers lose their investment

Rail nationalisation won't be free as you still have to pay for trains etc,  and they also promised to cut fares.   If they ran the trains as efficiently as now, paid no dividends, didn't put up salaries, didn't pay public sector pensions etc, put up ticket prices in line with what happened now, there would be no cost.  Rail is an easy one, good luck with the rest.

I was no fan of a lot of privatisations, whatever you think in the first sentence in the second paragraph is irrelevant as you can't buy these things back at a fraction of their true worth.  The carpet baggers have long gone, so you can't punish them by buying the shares back on the cheap now.  The people you punish will be people whose private and public sector pension funds now hold the shares.  I expect they end up payinhg full whack for the assets to avoid drowning in litigation.

I have said before that you can get the same effects of Nationalisations by regulating much harder, and it is way harder.  Renationalisation is just a very expensive political project with little benefit.  It is embarassing that instead of bringing benefits back up to more reasonable levels they are just wasting money on stuff like nationalisations, triple lock pensions and paying women pensions from 60.  

[Woodsey]

Brexit negotiations are going to prove nigh on impossible. Half the country will be furious at the outcome whatever it is.

Labour should play the long game and let the Tories fuck up Brexit and only go for another election after it's a done deal. Tories will be unelectable for a generation.

Must of the stuff which frightens me about Brexit won't be an issue under a left wing government, so let the Tories get on with committing electoral suicide and I can look forward to socialism for the rest of my life.

Socialism for the rest of your life is a little optimistic.

I give myself 20 years tops.

Labour will win the next 3 elections unless they shoot themselves in the foot. Not impossible on past form, I grant you.

Surely even if they get in, they don't last if they keep that manifesto.  They either cause economic problems* or massively let down big groups of people, who will then turn on them.  People still go on about the Lib Dems and Univesity Fees even though they were the minority partner.

Can't see how it ends well for either party.

* and your premis is that we are already in a state because of Brexit.
   

I think it's far more likely they increase tax more for the rich than fail to deliver their manifesto pledges.

Don't you think it's most likely that to deliver their manifesto pledges they have to increase taxes for everyone?

And prices go up to pay for the increased corporation taxes?

So everyone has less money in their pocket and everything is less affordable. Is that going to win multiple consecutive elections?

The poor will have more money in absolute terms anyway, as the minimum wage will have risen. So they can afford to pay slightly more tax.

But on the whole, I'm sure it will be the top 5% who will be expected to pay the bills.

Even if you smash the top 5% it is just tinkering around the edges.  The reality is if you want to have (for example) free tuition fees and a good social care programme then we all need to pay.  I guess and alternative is abolishing the State pension.

Very true, taxing the top 5% raises very little. We will all need to pay lumps to deliver the Labour proposals. My view is we pay a bit more tax but also suck up the hard times until the govt debt is paid off, then we are in a position to start spending more again.

[Woodsey]

Brexit negotiations are going to prove nigh on impossible. Half the country will be furious at the outcome whatever it is.

Labour should play the long game and let the Tories fuck up Brexit and only go for another election after it's a done deal. Tories will be unelectable for a generation.

Must of the stuff which frightens me about Brexit won't be an issue under a left wing government, so let the Tories get on with committing electoral suicide and I can look forward to socialism for the rest of my life.

Socialism for the rest of your life is a little optimistic.

I give myself 20 years tops.

Labour will win the next 3 elections unless they shoot themselves in the foot. Not impossible on past form, I grant you.

Surely even if they get in, they don't last if they keep that manifesto.  They either cause economic problems* or massively let down big groups of people, who will then turn on them.  People still go on about the Lib Dems and Univesity Fees even though they were the minority partner.

Can't see how it ends well for either party.

* and your premis is that we are already in a state because of Brexit.
   

I think it's far more likely they increase tax more for the rich than fail to deliver their manifesto pledges.

Don't you think it's most likely that to deliver their manifesto pledges they have to increase taxes for everyone?

And prices go up to pay for the increased corporation taxes?

So everyone has less money in their pocket and everything is less affordable. Is that going to win multiple consecutive elections?

The poor will have more money in absolute terms anyway, as the minimum wage will have risen. So they can afford to pay slightly more tax.

But on the whole, I'm sure it will be the top 5% who will be expected to pay the bills.

Aye, 12 months ago I was bombarded with people saying "why are you picking faults, are you one of the 1%?".  I'd also suggest the poor won't be much richer as in amongst all that spending, they forgot to reverse Tory benefit cuts.

Nationalisation seems very expensive for little benefit in the short term.  And if you want to win elections, you have to have more than a passing interest in what happens next?

Rail nationalisation will be free. Just don't renew the contracts of the franchises when they run out.

It's a national disgrace that utilities whose infrastructure was paid for by the public purse were sold off at a fraction of their true worth so capitalists could make a quick buck. I won't shed many tears if these carpet baggers lose their investment

Rail nationalisation won't be free as you still have to pay for trains etc,  and they also promised to cut fares.   If they ran the trains as efficiently as now, paid no dividends, didn't put up salaries, didn't pay public sector pensions etc, put up ticket prices in line with what happened now, there would be no cost.  Rail is an easy one, good luck with the rest.

I was no fan of a lot of privatisations, whatever you think in the first sentence in the second paragraph is irrelevant as you can't buy these things back at a fraction of their true worth.  The carpet baggers have long gone, so you can't punish them by buying the shares back on the cheap now.  The people you punish will be people whose private and public sector pension funds now hold the shares.  I expect they end up payinhg full whack for the assets to avoid drowning in litigation.

I have said before that you can get the same effects of Nationalisations by regulating much harder, and it is way harder.  Renationalisation is just a very expensive political project with little benefit.  It is embarassing that instead of bringing benefits back up to more reasonable levels they are just wasting money on stuff like nationalisations, triple lock pensions and paying women pensions from 60.  

You're starting to sound like one of those thick filthy Tories 

[The Camel]

Brexit negotiations are going to prove nigh on impossible. Half the country will be furious at the outcome whatever it is.

Labour should play the long game and let the Tories fuck up Brexit and only go for another election after it's a done deal. Tories will be unelectable for a generation.

Must of the stuff which frightens me about Brexit won't be an issue under a left wing government, so let the Tories get on with committing electoral suicide and I can look forward to socialism for the rest of my life.

Socialism for the rest of your life is a little optimistic.

I give myself 20 years tops.

Labour will win the next 3 elections unless they shoot themselves in the foot. Not impossible on past form, I grant you.

Surely even if they get in, they don't last if they keep that manifesto.  They either cause economic problems* or massively let down big groups of people, who will then turn on them.  People still go on about the Lib Dems and Univesity Fees even though they were the minority partner.

Can't see how it ends well for either party.

* and your premis is that we are already in a state because of Brexit.
   

I think it's far more likely they increase tax more for the rich than fail to deliver their manifesto pledges.

Don't you think it's most likely that to deliver their manifesto pledges they have to increase taxes for everyone?

And prices go up to pay for the increased corporation taxes?

So everyone has less money in their pocket and everything is less affordable. Is that going to win multiple consecutive elections?

The poor will have more money in absolute terms anyway, as the minimum wage will have risen. So they can afford to pay slightly more tax.

But on the whole, I'm sure it will be the top 5% who will be expected to pay the bills.

Even if you smash the top 5% it is just tinkering around the edges.  The reality is if you want to have (for example) free tuition fees and a good social care programme then we all need to pay.  I guess and alternative is abolishing the State pension.

If it was my choice, I would raise inheritance tax to pay for the increased public spending.

Dementia tax was a decent start, need to go further though

[The Camel]

My parents bought a plot of land in 1977. My Dad designed and contracted builders to make a house.

The entire project cost about £20,000.

That house is now worth northwards of half a million pounds.

Allowing for inflation, that's over £400,000 of untaxed wealth that has been created which will be divided between me and my siblings.

Ridiculous and unfair. No wonder young people cannot afford to buy a house.

[Doobs]

My parents bought a plot of land in 1977. My Dad designed and contracted builders to make a house.

The entire project cost about £20,000.

That house is now worth northwards of half a million pounds.

Allowing for inflation, that's over £400,000 of untaxed wealth that has been created which will be divided between me and my siblings.

Ridiculous and unfair. No wonder young people cannot afford to buy a house.

Ah now we are agreeing. 

[Jon MW]

Brexit negotiations are going to prove nigh on impossible. Half the country will be furious at the outcome whatever it is.

Labour should play the long game and let the Tories fuck up Brexit and only go for another election after it's a done deal. Tories will be unelectable for a generation.

Must of the stuff which frightens me about Brexit won't be an issue under a left wing government, so let the Tories get on with committing electoral suicide and I can look forward to socialism for the rest of my life.

Socialism for the rest of your life is a little optimistic.

I give myself 20 years tops.

Labour will win the next 3 elections unless they shoot themselves in the foot. Not impossible on past form, I grant you.

Surely even if they get in, they don't last if they keep that manifesto.  They either cause economic problems* or massively let down big groups of people, who will then turn on them.  People still go on about the Lib Dems and Univesity Fees even though they were the minority partner.

Can't see how it ends well for either party.

* and your premis is that we are already in a state because of Brexit.
   

I think it's far more likely they increase tax more for the rich than fail to deliver their manifesto pledges.

Don't you think it's most likely that to deliver their manifesto pledges they have to increase taxes for everyone?

And prices go up to pay for the increased corporation taxes?

So everyone has less money in their pocket and everything is less affordable. Is that going to win multiple consecutive elections?

The poor will have more money in absolute terms anyway, as the minimum wage will have risen. So they can afford to pay slightly more tax.

But on the whole, I'm sure it will be the top 5% who will be expected to pay the bills.

Even if you smash the top 5% it is just tinkering around the edges.  The reality is if you want to have (for example) free tuition fees and a good social care programme then we all need to pay.  I guess and alternative is abolishing the State pension.

If it was my choice, I would raise inheritance tax to pay for the increased public spending.

Dementia tax was a decent start, need to go further though

Inheritance tax raises hardly anything - if you change it enough to make it raise more you can't stop people getting around it. It's a pretty useless tax in every way.