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Poll
Question: How will you vote on December 12th 2019
Conservative - 19 (33.9%)
Labour - 12 (21.4%)
SNP - 2 (3.6%)
Lib Dem - 8 (14.3%)
Brexit - 1 (1.8%)
Green - 6 (10.7%)
Other - 2 (3.6%)
Spoil - 0 (0%)
Not voting - 6 (10.7%)
Total Voters: 55

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Author Topic: The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged  (Read 1727715 times)
JohnCharver
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« Reply #10215 on: June 17, 2017, 05:03:42 PM »

I may have missed this but which party has the local MP in the Grenhall area?

Who make up the majority of the council?

She only just got elected, so a little harsh. Though she was allegedly on the housing committee of the council and on the board of the Kensington and Chelsea Tennant Management organisation.  For more balance she claims to have campaigned on behalf of the tennants.

But as above, if you are a person who has way more responsibility than the average joe, maybe you shouldn't be pointing fingers.  


Emotions are running high on these issues. Blaming the current party in power is too simplistic.

It seems to me that a number of factors came together at one time which caused this horrific outcome.

I'm not saying politicians/councils/authorities are blameless but the reality is this could have easily happened under a Blair Government in 2005 or a Brown Government in 2009.

Were the safety/building regulations any better then?

The key is making sure this never happens again.

To compare to governments going back 20+ years is not very fruitful. Maybe it could have happened in a previous time but it didn't.

If anyone is to blame it's the council not necessarily the government. Governments don't have a lot of control over local projects.

The anger I can understand though. This tradegy is becoming a focal point and highlighting what's happened to some of the poorest areas in the UK over the last 10 years.
 You have a 8 mil refurb to make it look pretty in upmarket Kensington in a time of suplosed austerity.
It appears the cladding could be directly responsible for the perfect storm that meant it got so out of control so quickly. Done on the cheap it seems to save money.

You have people who have raised fire safety for a number of years being ignored about the concern. Bo jo telling officials to get stuffed at the London assembly when they raise issues of cuts to the fire service.

Post tradegy the governments response has been terrible, Which is why the anger is being directed there. TM didn't have the decency to face the public. The survivors are still sleeping on floors, others that are in similar blocks of flats have no clarity on how safe their homes are. Damian green just said they won'tbe respectively fitting sprinklers to tower blocks.

All this comes just days after being told the age of austerity is over. Essentially telling us all (which a lot knew) that austerity was a political choice not an economic necessity.

No wonder people are so incredibly angry about this they have every right to be.

Austerity is not a political choice.  You've got more chance staying in power if you can spend freely and reduce taxes.  It might have been the wrong economic choice but the notion that the Tories enjoy cutting disability benefit like an evil super villain is simply nonsense.

I couldn't disagree with this more. My main interface with media is FT and The Times and watching Sky News. I watch the BBC Parliament channel more than any other. I really do think the 'dyed in the wool' Tory core vote love the idea of squeezing the poor/less capable.

Fair enough you can go with the evil super villain narrative.  My opinion is that is a fantasy notion created by people who just like to hate the Tories.  My view is that they have just performed poorly in government and there is no malice there.

Dont think theres any malice in tories, they just represent what best suits the person whos financing them being there, theres no feeling in it at all, its just business. If the tory voters like to squeeze the poor, its the false propaganda theyve been led to believe that the poor are chainsmoking, alcoholics with a false disability and popping out kids.
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kukushkin88
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« Reply #10216 on: June 17, 2017, 05:12:45 PM »

I may have missed this but which party has the local MP in the Grenhall area?

Who make up the majority of the council?

She only just got elected, so a little harsh. Though she was allegedly on the housing committee of the council and on the board of the Kensington and Chelsea Tennant Management organisation.  For more balance she claims to have campaigned on behalf of the tennants.

But as above, if you are a person who has way more responsibility than the average joe, maybe you shouldn't be pointing fingers.  


Emotions are running high on these issues. Blaming the current party in power is too simplistic.

It seems to me that a number of factors came together at one time which caused this horrific outcome.

I'm not saying politicians/councils/authorities are blameless but the reality is this could have easily happened under a Blair Government in 2005 or a Brown Government in 2009.

Were the safety/building regulations any better then?

The key is making sure this never happens again.

To compare to governments going back 20+ years is not very fruitful. Maybe it could have happened in a previous time but it didn't.

If anyone is to blame it's the council not necessarily the government. Governments don't have a lot of control over local projects.

The anger I can understand though. This tradegy is becoming a focal point and highlighting what's happened to some of the poorest areas in the UK over the last 10 years.
 You have a 8 mil refurb to make it look pretty in upmarket Kensington in a time of suplosed austerity.
It appears the cladding could be directly responsible for the perfect storm that meant it got so out of control so quickly. Done on the cheap it seems to save money.

You have people who have raised fire safety for a number of years being ignored about the concern. Bo jo telling officials to get stuffed at the London assembly when they raise issues of cuts to the fire service.

Post tradegy the governments response has been terrible, Which is why the anger is being directed there. TM didn't have the decency to face the public. The survivors are still sleeping on floors, others that are in similar blocks of flats have no clarity on how safe their homes are. Damian green just said they won'tbe respectively fitting sprinklers to tower blocks.

All this comes just days after being told the age of austerity is over. Essentially telling us all (which a lot knew) that austerity was a political choice not an economic necessity.

No wonder people are so incredibly angry about this they have every right to be.

Austerity is not a political choice.  You've got more chance staying in power if you can spend freely and reduce taxes.  It might have been the wrong economic choice but the notion that the Tories enjoy cutting disability benefit like an evil super villain is simply nonsense.

I couldn't disagree with this more. My main interface with media is FT and The Times and watching Sky News. I watch the BBC Parliament channel more than any other. I really do think the 'dyed in the wool' Tory core vote love the idea of squeezing the poor/less capable.

Fair enough you can go with the evil super villain narrative.  My opinion is that is a fantasy notion created by people who just like to hate the Tories.  My view is that they have just performed poorly in government and there is no malice there.

Dont think theres any malice in tories, they just represent what best suits the person whos financing them being there, theres no feeling in it at all, its just business. If the tory voters like to squeeze the poor, its the false propaganda theyve been led to believe that the poor are chainsmoking, alcoholics with a false disability and popping out kids.

You might be right, I hope you are. It's hard to work out how I got to how I feel about things though. I hate the lunatics on the left just as much, they are destroying democracy too/
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DungBeetle
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« Reply #10217 on: June 17, 2017, 05:33:41 PM »

I may have missed this but which party has the local MP in the Grenhall area?

Who make up the majority of the council?

She only just got elected, so a little harsh. Though she was allegedly on the housing committee of the council and on the board of the Kensington and Chelsea Tennant Management organisation.  For more balance she claims to have campaigned on behalf of the tennants.

But as above, if you are a person who has way more responsibility than the average joe, maybe you shouldn't be pointing fingers.  


Emotions are running high on these issues. Blaming the current party in power is too simplistic.

It seems to me that a number of factors came together at one time which caused this horrific outcome.

I'm not saying politicians/councils/authorities are blameless but the reality is this could have easily happened under a Blair Government in 2005 or a Brown Government in 2009.

Were the safety/building regulations any better then?

The key is making sure this never happens again.

To compare to governments going back 20+ years is not very fruitful. Maybe it could have happened in a previous time but it didn't.

If anyone is to blame it's the council not necessarily the government. Governments don't have a lot of control over local projects.

The anger I can understand though. This tradegy is becoming a focal point and highlighting what's happened to some of the poorest areas in the UK over the last 10 years.
 You have a 8 mil refurb to make it look pretty in upmarket Kensington in a time of suplosed austerity.
It appears the cladding could be directly responsible for the perfect storm that meant it got so out of control so quickly. Done on the cheap it seems to save money.

You have people who have raised fire safety for a number of years being ignored about the concern. Bo jo telling officials to get stuffed at the London assembly when they raise issues of cuts to the fire service.

Post tradegy the governments response has been terrible, Which is why the anger is being directed there. TM didn't have the decency to face the public. The survivors are still sleeping on floors, others that are in similar blocks of flats have no clarity on how safe their homes are. Damian green just said they won'tbe respectively fitting sprinklers to tower blocks.

All this comes just days after being told the age of austerity is over. Essentially telling us all (which a lot knew) that austerity was a political choice not an economic necessity.

No wonder people are so incredibly angry about this they have every right to be.

Austerity is not a political choice.  You've got more chance staying in power if you can spend freely and reduce taxes.  It might have been the wrong economic choice but the notion that the Tories enjoy cutting disability benefit like an evil super villain is simply nonsense.

I disagree how can 11 days ago or whatever it be that the conservatives fought  a campaign based on further austerity and then 2 days after the election decide it's not working anymore and to completely U turn on it.
It hasn't been working for 10 years and they knew it for certainly for the last few years at least.
Meaning it was a political choice to pursue austerity not one born out of economic need. The only reason they dumped it is it nearly cost them an election.

Rightly or wrongly they likely still think spending cuts and restraint is the correct economic approach.  However, their desire for power outweighs that so they are now adapting policy to give the electorate what it demands.

There is never economic "need" for spending cuts as such. We can print our own currency so we can spend whatever we want as long as we don't care about inflation and currency valuation.
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DungBeetle
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« Reply #10218 on: June 17, 2017, 05:35:11 PM »

I may have missed this but which party has the local MP in the Grenhall area?

Who make up the majority of the council?

She only just got elected, so a little harsh. Though she was allegedly on the housing committee of the council and on the board of the Kensington and Chelsea Tennant Management organisation.  For more balance she claims to have campaigned on behalf of the tennants.

But as above, if you are a person who has way more responsibility than the average joe, maybe you shouldn't be pointing fingers.  


Emotions are running high on these issues. Blaming the current party in power is too simplistic.

It seems to me that a number of factors came together at one time which caused this horrific outcome.

I'm not saying politicians/councils/authorities are blameless but the reality is this could have easily happened under a Blair Government in 2005 or a Brown Government in 2009.

Were the safety/building regulations any better then?

The key is making sure this never happens again.

To compare to governments going back 20+ years is not very fruitful. Maybe it could have happened in a previous time but it didn't.

If anyone is to blame it's the council not necessarily the government. Governments don't have a lot of control over local projects.

The anger I can understand though. This tradegy is becoming a focal point and highlighting what's happened to some of the poorest areas in the UK over the last 10 years.
 You have a 8 mil refurb to make it look pretty in upmarket Kensington in a time of suplosed austerity.
It appears the cladding could be directly responsible for the perfect storm that meant it got so out of control so quickly. Done on the cheap it seems to save money.

You have people who have raised fire safety for a number of years being ignored about the concern. Bo jo telling officials to get stuffed at the London assembly when they raise issues of cuts to the fire service.

Post tradegy the governments response has been terrible, Which is why the anger is being directed there. TM didn't have the decency to face the public. The survivors are still sleeping on floors, others that are in similar blocks of flats have no clarity on how safe their homes are. Damian green just said they won'tbe respectively fitting sprinklers to tower blocks.

All this comes just days after being told the age of austerity is over. Essentially telling us all (which a lot knew) that austerity was a political choice not an economic necessity.

No wonder people are so incredibly angry about this they have every right to be.

Austerity is not a political choice.  You've got more chance staying in power if you can spend freely and reduce taxes.  It might have been the wrong economic choice but the notion that the Tories enjoy cutting disability benefit like an evil super villain is simply nonsense.

I couldn't disagree with this more. My main interface with media is FT and The Times and watching Sky News. I watch the BBC Parliament channel more than any other. I really do think the 'dyed in the wool' Tory core vote love the idea of squeezing the poor/less capable.

Fair enough you can go with the evil super villain narrative.  My opinion is that is a fantasy notion created by people who just like to hate the Tories.  My view is that they have just performed poorly in government and there is no malice there.

And that's fine and it's great that you've engaged in politics.

Sorry if this is horribly pretentious, I fear it is and please let me know. It's great if people who have a talent for writing get involved. You're a smart guy and a great writer, all we need is more political discussion.

No worries.  We have different views - however, the more I read the more I come to the conclusion that austerity is self defeating.  I'm still not 100% converted yet though Smiley
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RickBFA
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« Reply #10219 on: June 17, 2017, 08:08:07 PM »

If MP's were really in it for the money they would be deluded.

Any reasonably intelligent person, especially in the South East can earn 2/3/4/5 times an MP.

That's why I don't buy the arguments put forward in last couple of pages. Those views for me are emotional rants.

I think most MP's start out wanting to do good, I genuinely believe that - but they get corrupted by power. Nothing like a bit of power to feed inflated ego's eh?

If we really want quality MP's we should double their salaries to get decent quality candidates rather than some of the dross we have currently. I suspected that idea would give a few idealists on here a heart attack though  Cheesy

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buffyslayer1
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« Reply #10220 on: June 17, 2017, 08:17:26 PM »

If MP's were really in it for the money they would be deluded.

Any reasonably intelligent person, especially in the South East can earn 2/3/4/5 times an MP.

That's why I don't buy the arguments put forward in last couple of pages. Those views for me are emotional rants.

I think most MP's start out wanting to do good, I genuinely believe that - but they get corrupted by power. Nothing like a bit of power to feed inflated ego's eh?

If we really want quality MP's we should double their salaries to get decent quality candidates rather than some of the dross we have currently. I suspected that idea would give a few idealists on here a heart attack though  Cheesy



I am a bit of an idealist and I wholeheartedly agree with you. Smiley
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dakky
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« Reply #10221 on: June 17, 2017, 11:27:42 PM »

If MP's were really in it for the money they would be deluded.

Any reasonably intelligent person, especially in the South East can earn 2/3/4/5 times an MP.


MP salary is 3x average UK salary, before any expenses. That probably makes it 5 times avg salary.

I'm in London and am reasonably intelligent. Please tell me how to easily make 2-5x what they earn. I could do with it Smiley
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PokerBroker
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« Reply #10222 on: June 17, 2017, 11:55:07 PM »

Then there is the added benefits of directorships either as executive or non executive, after dinner speaking gigs, backhanders, oh yeah and the pension. 
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buffyslayer1
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« Reply #10223 on: June 18, 2017, 12:12:04 AM »

TM just announced next year they won't be doing a queens speech.
Not sure how legal this is and pretty sure it's never happened before. Absolutely outrageous and undemocratic.
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kukushkin88
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« Reply #10224 on: June 18, 2017, 12:19:05 AM »

TM just announced next year they won't be doing a queens speech.
Not sure how legal this is and pretty sure it's never happened before. Absolutely outrageous and undemocratic.

And Woodsey will still vote Conservative and won't know why.
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Woodsey
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« Reply #10225 on: June 18, 2017, 07:57:21 AM »

TM just announced next year they won't be doing a queens speech.
Not sure how legal this is and pretty sure it's never happened before. Absolutely outrageous and undemocratic.

And Woodsey will still vote Conservative and won't know why.

I know exactly why, myself and my family are better off under a tory govt.
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Doobs
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« Reply #10226 on: June 18, 2017, 08:20:40 AM »

TM just announced next year they won't be doing a queens speech.
Not sure how legal this is and pretty sure it's never happened before. Absolutely outrageous and undemocratic.

And Woodsey will still vote Conservative and won't know why.

I am no fan of Woodsey's politics, but it is pretty outrageous to accuse him of not knowing why he votes for whoever he votes for.  

Fwiw It happened not long ago.  All bills should still get debated and MPs will spend more time working and debating the important stuff.  Sure people who like tradition can get annoyed, but not really sure what we lose.  We can still have no confidence votes, vote against legislation, have byelections etc.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2017, 08:48:25 AM by Doobs » Logged

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neeko
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« Reply #10227 on: June 18, 2017, 08:23:38 AM »

TM just announced next year they won't be doing a queens speech.
Not sure how legal this is and pretty sure it's never happened before. Absolutely outrageous and undemocratic.

It was cancelled in 2011 so never is stretching it.
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ripple11
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« Reply #10228 on: June 18, 2017, 02:57:40 PM »

TM just announced next year they won't be doing a queens speech.
Not sure how legal this is and pretty sure it's never happened before. Absolutely outrageous and undemocratic.

It was cancelled in 2011 so never is stretching it.

Lizzie is going to miss a day of studying the form for Ascot this year.....she said that ain't going to happen next year.  Smiley
« Last Edit: June 18, 2017, 03:00:03 PM by ripple11 » Logged
RickBFA
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« Reply #10229 on: June 18, 2017, 03:30:05 PM »

If MP's were really in it for the money they would be deluded.

Any reasonably intelligent person, especially in the South East can earn 2/3/4/5 times an MP.


MP salary is 3x average UK salary, before any expenses. That probably makes it 5 times avg salary.

I'm in London and am reasonably intelligent. Please tell me how to easily make 2-5x what they earn. I could do with it Smiley

We are looking for the best quality people to make our laws and run our country.

If you were, say a Director of a FTSE100 company, what would your salary be? Or a senior civil servant?

That wouldn't be a bad comparison, off the top of my head.

Just because their current salary is 3 times the UK average is an irrelevant comparison.

We are not paying them the going rate for their responsibilities in the current market and we end up with clowns doing the job.

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