The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[Doobs]

British government concedes it may not have enough time to renegotiate permits for lorry drivers in 'no deal' Brexit memo. This would mean, according to the industry, "complete and utter chaos" at ports

Somebody was talking about this earlier at work.   These are second hand numbers, but they suggested we have 40,000 lorries outside from the UK at one time and we would only have access to 1,200 permits.   I know nothing of the system, but that seems deeply worrying if true.  Maybe only having 1200 trucks will help us cope with all the extra customs checks in Dover.  Will it be ok if I come round yours for spam and peaches Tighty.

[TightEnd]

Political editor prediction

there will be a backbench amendment for a 2nd referendum to reverse Brexit.

Voting for: SNP, Libs, 150-200 Labour Remainers, 50-100 pro-EU Tories?

Voting against: PM, Cabinet, Corbyn, McDonnell, Tory and Labour Brexiteers, DUP. 300 plus?

Vote will be v close.

Does labour even get that many rebels under Corbyn anymore and haven't the pro-EU tory rebels been limited to a handful?   

granted you could take a zero off 150-200 and 50-100 according to other commentators and it might be more reasonable but i will clutch at any straws however tenuous

[DaveShoelace]

Anyone actually doing a Brexit preservable food air raid shelter thingy? I just cleared out an old pantry and might start one.

[MANTIS01]

As grisly prospects go I would say reversing Brexit and making a slow crawl back to Brussels as a vassal state of EU ranks up there.

Can just see all the leaders lined up chanting shame, shame, shame as we crawl past

[Pokerpops]

I’m feeling very torn at the moment.

On the one hand, the attitude of the Eurocrats like Barnier and Tusk, and of the politicians like Macron makes me loathe the whole European project even more.

On the other hand, the success of Brexit requires political will and skill that doesn’t currently exist in either of our main political parties.

I’m not saying I want to change the referendum result. I would like to change the outcome of the result that was delivered.

It’s pretty easy for the EU to threaten us with grounded planes and parked up trucks whilst our leaders fight amongst themselves over exactly what Brexit means. It’s time for this little island state to stand up to the bullies and remind them what they will be losing by their confrontational approach.
We are still a major contributor to NATO, and to the world’s intelligence system. We are still a major buyer of European goods. We still provide a significant contribution to the development of technology.

It’s very clear that May isn’t up to the job of dealing with this, JRM and BoJo would run a mile from the responsibility and both Churchill and Thatcher have passed. So, let’s get The Queen involved. She can pop over to Brussels and have a word with them.

She could invite Monsieur Barnier, et Monsieur Tusk, to make us an offer. Invite them to show us that they will uphold Artcle 8 of the Lisbon Treaty. The one that says

 
1. The Union shall develop a special relationship with neighbouring countries, aiming to establish an area of prosperity and good neighbourliness, founded on the values of the Union and characterised by close and peaceful relations based on cooperation.

2. For the purposes of paragraph 1, the Union may conclude specific agreements with the countries concerned. These agreements may contain reciprocal rights and obligations as well as the possibility of undertaking activities jointly. Their implementation shall be the subject of periodic consultation.


Meantime, 8’m stocking up on garlic and onions.

[nirvana]

Having wavered a little, I am ready to pronounce that a second referendum before leaving would be deeply undemocratic..not that we should necessarily value democracy above the realpolitik and tinned peaches of  any particular situation.

The Labour left is pushing ahead with open selection in order to democratise. Imagine the outrage if, following a selection vote, another bunch of people came along and demanded another vote before the candidate had even stood for election.

These same stalinist democrats now want to push for a second reffer before the first one has been enacted.

Load of old bollocks - i prefer the Marxists

[Jon MW]

Having wavered a little, I am ready to pronounce that a second referendum before leaving would be deeply undemocratic.....

So following the result of the first referendum would be democratic?
The first referendum is 'the will of the people'?

The results of that referendum were:
29% couldn't vote;
20% didn't vote;
26% voted for;
25% voted against

74% of the population didn't vote to leave the EU; how is leaving the EU democratic?

[nirvana]

Having wavered a little, I am ready to pronounce that a second referendum before leaving would be deeply undemocratic.....

So following the result of the first referendum would be democratic?
The first referendum is 'the will of the people'?

The results of that referendum were:
29% couldn't vote;
20% didn't vote;
26% voted for;
25% voted against

74% of the population didn't vote to leave the EU; how is leaving the EU democratic?

Some straw man argument that

[doubleup]

It’s pretty easy for the EU to threaten us with grounded planes and parked up trucks

They aren't threatening that or anything.   These are simply some of the many negative consequences of the UK leaving without any agreement.

Well done btw on accepting that real damage will be done to the country if we crash out, the internet is still brimming full of brexit morons who say that it is all "project fear" and things like goods vehicle permit limits don't exist.

[Pokerpops]

It’s pretty easy for the EU to threaten us with grounded planes and parked up trucks

They aren't threatening that or anything.   These are simply some of the many negative consequences of the UK leaving without any agreement.

Well done btw on accepting that real damage will be done to the country if we crash out, the internet is still brimming full of brexit morons who say that it is all "project fear" and things like goods vehicle permit limits don't exist.

The point is that there’s not a need for us to crash out. We, and they, have had two years to resolve these issues. But the EU have acted like a jilted lover who can’t accept that it’s over. Refusing to return our DVDs, fighting over who gets the Labrador and not cooperating on transferring the mortgage.
They definitely aren’t working to establish area of prosperity and good neighbourliness.

[DungBeetle]

Having wavered a little, I am ready to pronounce that a second referendum before leaving would be deeply undemocratic.....

So following the result of the first referendum would be democratic?
The first referendum is 'the will of the people'?

The results of that referendum were:
29% couldn't vote;
20% didn't vote;
26% voted for;
25% voted against

74% of the population didn't vote to leave the EU; how is leaving the EU democratic?

I am a remainer but where are these figures from?  Are you using the non votes from new born babies to make a political point???

[RickBFA]

Having wavered a little, I am ready to pronounce that a second referendum before leaving would be deeply undemocratic.....

So following the result of the first referendum would be democratic?
The first referendum is 'the will of the people'?

The results of that referendum were:
29% couldn't vote;
20% didn't vote;
26% voted for;
25% voted against

74% of the population didn't vote to leave the EU; how is leaving the EU democratic?

I am a remainer but where are these figures from?  Are you using the non votes from new born babies to make a political point???

On the basis of JonMW’s post, every election in our history is flawed. We obviously need to open up voting to include children.

 

[MintTrav]

Having wavered a little, I am ready to pronounce that a second referendum before leaving would be deeply undemocratic.

This is the most important decision the  country has made for forty years. When we elect a government, it just lasts a few years, but the result of this could be in place for decades. We need to be sure that we are doing the right thing. Last time, the narrow majority included protest voters who thought their vote wouldn't affect the result and there were people who didn't bother to vote for the same reason. Both of those should have learnt their lesson, to say nothing of people who voted leave, but now understand the situation better and would vote differently. The reason hardline leavers don't want another referendum is not because it is 'undemocratic' - if they really were champions of democracy they would support one. It's because they fear they will lose. But, in a scenario where it looks like the result is likely to be different now, it would be undemocratic not to run it again before making the biggest change to our lives for a generation.

[Pokerpops]

Having wavered a little, I am ready to pronounce that a second referendum before leaving would be deeply undemocratic.

This is the most important decision the  country has made for forty years. When we elect a government, it just lasts a few years, but the result of this could be in place for decades. We need to be sure that we are doing the right thing. Last time, the narrow majority included protest voters who thought their vote wouldn't affect the result and there were people who didn't bother to vote for the same reason. Both of those should have learnt their lesson, to say nothing of people who voted leave, but now understand the situation better and would vote differently. The reason hardline leavers don't want another referendum is not because it is 'undemocratic' - if they really were champions of democracy they would support one. It's because they fear they will lose. But, in a scenario where it looks like the result is likely to be different now, it would be undemocratic not to run it again before making the biggest change to our lives for a generation.

Say what?

So we’re making decisions based on opinion polls now?

We don’t elect a government btw.

[Doobs]

Having wavered a little, I am ready to pronounce that a second referendum before leaving would be deeply undemocratic.

This is the most important decision the  country has made for forty years. When we elect a government, it just lasts a few years, but the result of this could be in place for decades. We need to be sure that we are doing the right thing. Last time, the narrow majority included protest voters who thought their vote wouldn't affect the result and there were people who didn't bother to vote for the same reason. Both of those should have learnt their lesson, to say nothing of people who voted leave, but now understand the situation better and would vote differently. The reason hardline leavers don't want another referendum is not because it is 'undemocratic' - if they really were champions of democracy they would support one. It's because they fear they will lose. But, in a scenario where it looks like the result is likely to be different now, it would be undemocratic not to run it again before making the biggest change to our lives for a generation.

Say what?

So we’re making decisions based on opinion polls now?

We don’t elect a government btw.

We have a representative democracy, so you could say having a referendum is anti-democratic...