The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[kukushkin88]

I don't remember Northern Ireland even being discussed pre-referendum (a weakness of all sides, how the debate was framed, the problem of a remain/leave simplistic question)

It wasn't really mentioned on here until about 18 months ago

Its been obvious over the last twelve months that there is no solution and its a show-stopper. Even less prospect of any solution where the hardline DUP hold the balance of power (ridiculous with hindsight: early election and terrible campaignthat lost their majority)

Yet the ERG won't give way at all, only interested in the theory of leaving the EU and the dogmatism of the misguided, rather than the pragmatism of getting something over the line and then going from there

I think in a few years we'll look-back and think T May did a remarkable job to even get it this close (as contrarian as this may seem now)

I think we'll consider her as far more of a politician than Cameron, Corbyn (standing by twiddling his thumbs), and Boris, Davis, Fox, Rees-Mogg and the hardliners, especially once economic reality hits after next March

Absolutely. I think she has done an incredible job, playing a long game in the face of opposition and ridicule from all sides. She made some whopping mistakes, not just the election, but she has toughed it out, despite losing some key allies and, while I don’t agree with all her positions, she has manoeuvred us away from the extremist outcome. Still plenty of brinkmanship and opportunities for everything to go wrong to come, so this may be premature, but impressive so far. I expect to be in the minority on this one.

Isn’t it illusory? There isn’t much tangible/measurable that she’s actually done and it now seems that ‘no deal’ is now the most likely outcome. It’s hard to be impressed by that.

She is in an impossible position of course but that isn’t in itself impressive.

[StuartHopkin]

the pol.ed of the Telegraph of all places said

"Even if ‘hard’ Brexiteers can rustle up 150 or 200 votes, they are still massively outnumbered. As for those funny 32m people called the voters, ie the rest of us, only a minority want to slump out of the EU into Limbo and drop Northern Ireland in it."

but is that true?

Apologies, this may almost certainly will come across as being muddled thinking.


Is it true that only a minority want us to slump out into a Limbo? I’d say so. I’d be amazed if there were 52% still out there prepared to vote Leave in the certain knowledge that No Deal was the only deal. But that wasn’t the question in 2016, nor can it be the question in any future referendum.

We didn’t aim to be here. We were supposed to be capable of negotiating a sensibly priced divorce. Turns out we weren’t. The Brussels Wife wants everything we have and to prevent us from meeting anyone new. Despite it having been her unreasonable behaviour that led to the marriage breaking down.

But how do we turn round?

There doesn’t seem to be a way to sell any of the proposed deals, and there’s no way to sell a reversal that sees us stay in an unchanged EU. Maybe it’s time for the EU to offer us an incentive to think about staying, rather than just making it hard to leave.

Why should they though, they have been very clear from the start?

That is what make's it so ridiculous.

At the end of week 1 the conclusion should have been no deal is possible, lets spend the next 103 weeks planning for no deal.

It would seem overly generous given the ridiculous waste of time/money and resource that we’ve caused but they could let us stay on exactly the same terms as before. That would be a massive incentive given the position we’ve put ourselves in. We should just say sorry, then thank you and put the whole sorry episode behind us.

Why should we apologise? What would we be thanking them for?

Let’s agree that Kukushkin’s suggestion is unacceptable. That the EU needs to change to keep us involved.
What can they offer?

I voted Leave
I still think we should Leave

But I agree with Kukushkin

We should apologise for wasting their time, not preparing properly, and allowing a bunch of utter clowns to run the country. (They are obviously no better, but not good to bring that up in an apology)
We should thank them for letting us pretend like this whole thing never happened, as we have wasted an opportunity. (Sorry remainateers, I still think this was an opportunity)

Why do the EU need to change, when we have left ourselves not one option that makes carrying on with this worthwhile?

I think Theresa would be the greatest politician ever if she turned round now and called the whole thing off!

[Pokerpops]

The government should say that it intends to introduce an Irish re-unification referendum bill asap and open talks with the republic.  This will then give the Northern Irish a clear choice.

That would end well

That would be an interesting campaign though.

Perhaps it would be easier to have a word in Leo’s ear and suggest that they too leave the EU 

[Marky147]

the pol.ed of the Telegraph of all places said

"Even if ‘hard’ Brexiteers can rustle up 150 or 200 votes, they are still massively outnumbered. As for those funny 32m people called the voters, ie the rest of us, only a minority want to slump out of the EU into Limbo and drop Northern Ireland in it."

but is that true?

Apologies, this may almost certainly will come across as being muddled thinking.


Is it true that only a minority want us to slump out into a Limbo? I’d say so. I’d be amazed if there were 52% still out there prepared to vote Leave in the certain knowledge that No Deal was the only deal. But that wasn’t the question in 2016, nor can it be the question in any future referendum.

We didn’t aim to be here. We were supposed to be capable of negotiating a sensibly priced divorce. Turns out we weren’t. The Brussels Wife wants everything we have and to prevent us from meeting anyone new. Despite it having been her unreasonable behaviour that led to the marriage breaking down.

But how do we turn round?

There doesn’t seem to be a way to sell any of the proposed deals, and there’s no way to sell a reversal that sees us stay in an unchanged EU. Maybe it’s time for the EU to offer us an incentive to think about staying, rather than just making it hard to leave.

Why should they though, they have been very clear from the start?

That is what make's it so ridiculous.

At the end of week 1 the conclusion should have been no deal is possible, lets spend the next 103 weeks planning for no deal.

It would seem overly generous given the ridiculous waste of time/money and resource that we’ve caused but they could let us stay on exactly the same terms as before. That would be a massive incentive given the position we’ve put ourselves in. We should just say sorry, then thank you and put the whole sorry episode behind us.

Why should we apologise? What would we be thanking them for?

Let’s agree that Kukushkin’s suggestion is unacceptable. That the EU needs to change to keep us involved.
What can they offer?

I voted Leave
I still think we should Leave

But I agree with Kukushkin

We should apologise for wasting their time, not preparing properly, and allowing a bunch of utter clowns to run the country. (They are obviously no better, but not good to bring that up in an apology)
We should thank them for letting us pretend like this whole thing never happened, as we have wasted an opportunity. (Sorry remainateers, I still think this was an opportunity)

Why do the EU need to change, when we have left ourselves not one option that makes carrying on with this worthwhile?

I think Theresa would be the greatest politician ever if she turned round now and called the whole thing off!

Would be too com

[MANTIS01]

Apologise and crawl back on the same terms to chants of shame shame shame? What a thoroughly cringeworthy & spineless suggestion.

Remain do chat on about the marginal nature of the referendum, it's just the 52% like. It gives them hope that such a slender decision will somehow be reversed. 

But let's be absolutely clear that 100% of British people thought EU reform was required.

So wait a second, the current suggestion is to ignore 100% of British people, to crawl back apologising, to an unelected mob, who have sought to teach us a lesson and bully us, to a union with a precarious future, that we never agree with. Just go back and keep our heads down like, stop causing trouble and just accept being told what to do even though we don't agree. What a fucking brainwave. It's just about the most un-British thing I've ever heard of.

The problem with Remoan argument is that it's ALL about economics ALL about wealth. Bit rich coming from the Left like but whatever. When in fact there are loads of things people hold dear over and above the material. How are people going to feel in the longer term future? What are the longer term social impacts of Brexit? Just presenting a pie chart about immediate import tariffs is simply one variable, what about the rest? We'll need a proper long term study across a generation to even begin to draw conclusions about overall effect.

All these scientists killed poker with their pure focus on maths and the above suggestion shows these bots are absolutely clueless about how people actually feel, what their desires are. It's just moaning at people because they don't accept the numbers. Brits crawling back apologising? Ha! Fucking ridiculous mate. 

[Doobs]

You really don't get it, despite it being mentioned countless times.  If there is no exit agreement, there is simply no legal basis for any commerce other than under WTO terms.  All the problems about food imports, flights, medicines, cross border financial contracts are a result of Britain leaving without a replacement to the the EU treaties that cover these areas.  It isn't anything to do with to with "treating us worse".

As far as horses are concerned, I have no idea whether there are any EU treaties/agreements covering their movement.  You brought the issue up and watched the tv show  - have you looked into it.  It wouldn't be the least bit surprising, if there was some issue regarding the movement of non-food livestock in the event of no deal (or that it was overlooked in a deal).  oh wait a quick google and

The movement of horses between Britain and Europe, for example for racing, is currently subject to EU rules which typically require an ID and health document. For travel between Britain, France and Ireland only an ID document is required.

Britain is seeking talks with the European Commission to become a listed third country, similar to Australia and New Zealand, on the day it leaves the EU, which would allow horses to travel with appropriate ID and health documents.

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-horses/movement-of-horses-from-uk-to-the-eu-could-be-barred-by-no-deal-brexit-idUSKCN1MM1SX

So it seems that there is a problem and it seems that "remoaners" were highlighting the problem.  "staggeringly ignorant" remoaners that is.

There are some smug people on this forum, more than most forums I am a member of, but some take the biscuit(regardless of being totally right on any subject). I guess I should believe everything I read, like you clearly have, and apply no common sense logic to the problem.

I have never claimed to know the answers, hence the reason I have posed questions, but when people tell me "I really dont get it" when I know that, hmmmmmm, I best not go on...


The more I read here, the more I think its probably best that anyone with anything other than than opinion that means we should stay in the EU, should give up posting here, as we are clearly clueless, stupid, racist and a waste of skin(just my opinion of course).

It seems to me that the "informed" guys on here know it will all fail, cant actually happen etc, so no point posting with anything other than a Remain viewpoint.

Only so often even this thick skin can be insulted by people who are captains of industry/wealthy beyond their means/etc, or I guess so because they seem to have all the answers, and I guess must be super successful.

Leave you to it guys, before I get banned!! xxx

Seems harsh that you vote leave so frequently but we were only allowed one referendum.

[BigAdz]

You really don't get it, despite it being mentioned countless times.  If there is no exit agreement, there is simply no legal basis for any commerce other than under WTO terms.  All the problems about food imports, flights, medicines, cross border financial contracts are a result of Britain leaving without a replacement to the the EU treaties that cover these areas.  It isn't anything to do with to with "treating us worse".

As far as horses are concerned, I have no idea whether there are any EU treaties/agreements covering their movement.  You brought the issue up and watched the tv show  - have you looked into it.  It wouldn't be the least bit surprising, if there was some issue regarding the movement of non-food livestock in the event of no deal (or that it was overlooked in a deal).  oh wait a quick google and

The movement of horses between Britain and Europe, for example for racing, is currently subject to EU rules which typically require an ID and health document. For travel between Britain, France and Ireland only an ID document is required.

Britain is seeking talks with the European Commission to become a listed third country, similar to Australia and New Zealand, on the day it leaves the EU, which would allow horses to travel with appropriate ID and health documents.

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-horses/movement-of-horses-from-uk-to-the-eu-could-be-barred-by-no-deal-brexit-idUSKCN1MM1SX

So it seems that there is a problem and it seems that "remoaners" were highlighting the problem.  "staggeringly ignorant" remoaners that is.

There are some smug people on this forum, more than most forums I am a member of, but some take the biscuit(regardless of being totally right on any subject). I guess I should believe everything I read, like you clearly have, and apply no common sense logic to the problem.

I have never claimed to know the answers, hence the reason I have posed questions, but when people tell me "I really dont get it" when I know that, hmmmmmm, I best not go on...


The more I read here, the more I think its probably best that anyone with anything other than than opinion that means we should stay in the EU, should give up posting here, as we are clearly clueless, stupid, racist and a waste of skin(just my opinion of course).

It seems to me that the "informed" guys on here know it will all fail, cant actually happen etc, so no point posting with anything other than a Remain viewpoint.

Only so often even this thick skin can be insulted by people who are captains of industry/wealthy beyond their means/etc, or I guess so because they seem to have all the answers, and I guess must be super successful.

Leave you to it guys, before I get banned!! xxx

Seems harsh that you vote leave so frequently but we were only allowed one referendum.

But if I left, your posts would halve

[BigAdz]

Apologise and crawl back on the same terms to chants of shame shame shame? What a thoroughly cringeworthy & spineless suggestion.

Remain do chat on about the marginal nature of the referendum, it's just the 52% like. It gives them hope that such a slender decision will somehow be reversed. 

But let's be absolutely clear that 100% of British people thought EU reform was required.

So wait a second, the current suggestion is to ignore 100% of British people, to crawl back apologising, to an unelected mob, who have sought to teach us a lesson and bully us, to a union with a precarious future, that we never agree with. Just go back and keep our heads down like, stop causing trouble and just accept being told what to do even though we don't agree. What a fucking brainwave. It's just about the most un-British thing I've ever heard of.

The problem with Remoan argument is that it's ALL about economics ALL about wealth. Bit rich coming from the Left like but whatever. When in fact there are loads of things people hold dear over and above the material. How are people going to feel in the longer term future? What are the longer term social impacts of Brexit? Just presenting a pie chart about immediate import tariffs is simply one variable, what about the rest? We'll need a proper long term study across a generation to even begin to draw conclusions about overall effect.

All these scientists killed poker with their pure focus on maths and the above suggestion shows these bots are absolutely clueless about how people actually feel, what their desires are. It's just moaning at people because they don't accept the numbers. Brits crawling back apologising? Ha! Fucking ridiculous mate. 

Nailed it Mantis

[Pokerpops]

Apologise and crawl back on the same terms to chants of shame shame shame? What a thoroughly cringeworthy & spineless suggestion.

Remain do chat on about the marginal nature of the referendum, it's just the 52% like. It gives them hope that such a slender decision will somehow be reversed. 

But let's be absolutely clear that 100% of British people thought EU reform was required.

So wait a second, the current suggestion is to ignore 100% of British people, to crawl back apologising, to an unelected mob, who have sought to teach us a lesson and bully us, to a union with a precarious future, that we never agree with. Just go back and keep our heads down like, stop causing trouble and just accept being told what to do even though we don't agree. What a fucking brainwave. It's just about the most un-British thing I've ever heard of.

The problem with Remoan argument is that it's ALL about economics ALL about wealth. Bit rich coming from the Left like but whatever. When in fact there are loads of things people hold dear over and above the material. How are people going to feel in the longer term future? What are the longer term social impacts of Brexit? Just presenting a pie chart about immediate import tariffs is simply one variable, what about the rest? We'll need a proper long term study across a generation to even begin to draw conclusions about overall effect.

All these scientists killed poker with their pure focus on maths and the above suggestion shows these bots are absolutely clueless about how people actually feel, what their desires are. It's just moaning at people because they don't accept the numbers. Brits crawling back apologising? Ha! Fucking ridiculous mate. 

You do know what 100% means right?

Are you now one of those Apprentice wannabe types who reckon they can give 150% to every task?

I’m very anti-EU myself, but your contributions to the debate are so risible that it makes me doubt my commitment to the argument,

[kukushkin88]

Apologise and crawl back on the same terms to chants of shame shame shame? What a thoroughly cringeworthy & spineless suggestion.

Remain do chat on about the marginal nature of the referendum, it's just the 52% like. It gives them hope that such a slender decision will somehow be reversed. 

But let's be absolutely clear that 100% of British people thought EU reform was required.

So wait a second, the current suggestion is to ignore 100% of British people, to crawl back apologising, to an unelected mob, who have sought to teach us a lesson and bully us, to a union with a precarious future, that we never agree with. Just go back and keep our heads down like, stop causing trouble and just accept being told what to do even though we don't agree. What a fucking brainwave. It's just about the most un-British thing I've ever heard of.

The problem with Remoan argument is that it's ALL about economics ALL about wealth. Bit rich coming from the Left like but whatever. When in fact there are loads of things people hold dear over and above the material. How are people going to feel in the longer term future? What are the longer term social impacts of Brexit? Just presenting a pie chart about immediate import tariffs is simply one variable, what about the rest? We'll need a proper long term study across a generation to even begin to draw conclusions about overall effect.

All these scientists killed poker with their pure focus on maths and the above suggestion shows these bots are absolutely clueless about how people actually feel, what their desires are. It's just moaning at people because they don't accept the numbers. Brits crawling back apologising? Ha! Fucking ridiculous mate. 

You do know what 100% means right?

Are you now one of those Apprentice wannabe types who reckon they can give 150% to every task?

I’m very anti-EU myself, but your contributions to the debate are so risible that it makes me doubt my commitment to the argument,

:-)

[MANTIS01]

lol see, zoom straight to the numbers, like moths to a flame.

more pertinent question is do we know what "vassal" means?

incidentally, anybody who thinks EU reform was not required is welcome to make their case....

[kukushkin88]

lol see, zoom straight to the numbers, like moths to a flame.

more pertinent question is do we know what "vassal" means?

incidentally, anybody who thinks EU reform was not required is welcome to make their case....

What reform did you have in mind? It’s a body that constantly changes and evolves, we elect the people that are responsible for bringing about that change when it is needed. It seems an OK system to me. I’d like to keep it the same.

[ripple11]

There’s now a proposed backstop to the backstop.

FML, as sure night follows day, there will be a third backstop by Friday.

[MintTrav]

lol see, zoom straight to the numbers, like moths to a flame.

more pertinent question is do we know what "vassal" means?

incidentally, anybody who thinks EU reform was not required is welcome to make their case....

Who are the people who have said EU reform is not required? There you lot go again, creating positions for us that we never took ourselves. I’m sure most agree with you that reform is needed. I certainly do. So what? We should cut our own throats because an organisation we belong to hasn’t undertaken necessary reforms?

[MANTIS01]

lol see, zoom straight to the numbers, like moths to a flame.

more pertinent question is do we know what "vassal" means?

incidentally, anybody who thinks EU reform was not required is welcome to make their case....

What reform did you have in mind? It’s a body that constantly changes and evolves, we elect the people that are responsible for bringing about that change when it is needed. It seems an OK system to me. I’d like to keep it the same.

mate earlier in this thread you said the UK were constantly objecting to all these proposed changes and evolutions, the only dissenting voice.

Yo...if the people we elect are always objecting...why'd you like to keep it the same?