The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[RickBFA]

It is a sad state of affairs when both major parties are more interested in personal gain, power and narrow ideology rather than the national interest.

Ironically the left wing nutters that are more interested in gaining internal power in the Labour Party,  may be the reason we get another Tory government. If the Labour Party was more moderate they would piss any election in next 12 months. I’m sure they will be having a great time pushing through the de-selection of moderate MP’s though. Beggars belief that they are so stupid.

[Pokerpops]

It is a sad state of affairs when both major parties are more interested in personal gain, power and narrow ideology rather than the national interest.

Setting aside the issue of people being in politics having a narrow ideology (I assume by narrow you mean extreme in some form or other). Being passionate about your beliefs is a quality to be admired even if we don’t agree with them.

Who would you say was the last political leader who was in the role for predominantly altruistic reasons? Someone who had a strong belief in their policies and was prepared to make sacrifices to deliver them.

Working backwards
TM - tbh, I think she is well-intentioned. She just seems to lack any beliefs.
DC - let’s not even go there
GB - well-intentioned, had his beliefs, didn’t really have the skills.
TB - worse than Cameron in terms of self-interest
JM - a cross between May and Brown

So we’re back to the most divisive figure in recent political history...

She had strong beliefs and strong skills and was, I believe, a true servant of her country. (I don’t agree with a lot of what she did, but she was a colossus in comparison to those who have followed her. And in comparison to those that went immediately before her (Wilson, Heath, Callaghan)

[BigAdz]

The time it’s taken is OK imo, albeit A50 shouldn’t have been triggered until they were a bit more ready. I think they enacted it because they were pleased with the ‘Brexit means Brexit’ soundbite and the timing sat well with that and was perfect to ensure the ‘crazies’ bought in to the idea of TM as leader.

The issue I think is that to a massive extent TM’s tories and to a lesser extent Corbyn and his ‘ista’s’ (let’s ignore the extreme elements on both sides, which I think we can for now, other than maybe the DUP) have an unprecedented opportunity to act in the national interest, in a very clear and meaningful way. Instead they’re just jockeying for political position.

It would be interesting to know how many labour MPs are pro-Brexit - a few of the old Stalinists and Marxists and a handful of others - the PLP is pro remain, membership seems to be pro-remain but any MP who doesn't vote down this deal probably faces a real battle to avoid being deselected. It really feels like a ridiculous position that they've adopted - primarily to avoid the labour leave voters (many more of these than in the PLP or membership) possibly wiping them out at a GE

I couldn’t agree more, that it’s a ridiculous position. It’s a bit of Benn legacy, I definitely have insight on this one, some of the proper left wing nutters are some of my best friends. Full disclosure: I probably am a Marxist, as I understand the term, I’m sure it’s a much misunderstood term though.

And suddenly so much makes sense............

[nirvana]

It is a sad state of affairs when both major parties are more interested in personal gain, power and narrow ideology rather than the national interest.

Setting aside the issue of people being in politics having a narrow ideology (I assume by narrow you mean extreme in some form or other). Being passionate about your beliefs is a quality to be admired even if we don’t agree with them.

Who would you say was the last political leader who was in the role for predominantly altruistic reasons? Someone who had a strong belief in their policies and was prepared to make sacrifices to deliver them.

Working backwards
TM - tbh, I think she is well-intentioned. She just seems to lack any beliefs.
DC - let’s not even go there
GB - well-intentioned, had his beliefs, didn’t really have the skills.
TB - worse than Cameron in terms of self-interest
JM - a cross between May and Brown

So we’re back to the most divisive figure in recent political history...

She had strong beliefs and strong skills and was, I believe, a true servant of her country. (I don’t agree with a lot of what she did, but she was a colossus in comparison to those who have followed her. And in comparison to those that went immediately before her (Wilson, Heath, Callaghan)

Think you dismiss Wilson a little too readily there..ask Tikay, hell have been quite mature when Wilson was in charge

[RED-DOG]

It is a sad state of affairs when both major parties are more interested in personal gain, power and narrow ideology rather than the national interest.

Setting aside the issue of people being in politics having a narrow ideology (I assume by narrow you mean extreme in some form or other). Being passionate about your beliefs is a quality to be admired even if we don’t agree with them.

Who would you say was the last political leader who was in the role for predominantly altruistic reasons? Someone who had a strong belief in their policies and was prepared to make sacrifices to deliver them.

Working backwards
TM - tbh, I think she is well-intentioned. She just seems to lack any beliefs.
DC - let’s not even go there
GB - well-intentioned, had his beliefs, didn’t really have the skills.
TB - worse than Cameron in terms of self-interest
JM - a cross between May and Brown

So we’re back to the most divisive figure in recent political history...

She had strong beliefs and strong skills and was, I believe, a true servant of her country. (I don’t agree with a lot of what she did, but she was a colossus in comparison to those who have followed her. And in comparison to those that went immediately before her (Wilson, Heath, Callaghan)

Think you dismiss Wilson a little too readily there..ask Tikay, hell have been quite mature when Wilson was in charge

Wilson was PM when I was 6 until I was 12. I thought the Prime Minister was permanent, I didn't know they changed them.

[bobAlike]

Does anyone else feel that during the last 18 months or so that we are being railroaded in to Brexit failure?

Even as a Brexiteer, when TM was appointed PM I thought that it would be a good thing that as she was a remainer she would could bring some balance in to what could be a shit show, and is now proved to be just that... At no point has she shown any true leadership skills other than trying to stay in power.

I have never been one for conspiracy theory but I just cant help but feel that the EU and high ranking remainers have engineered the current situation. I'm starting to feel that it will just not happen now

[RED-DOG]

Does anyone else feel that during the last 18 months or so that we are being railroaded in to Brexit failure?

Even as a Brexiteer, when TM was appointed PM I thought that it would be a good thing that as she was a remainer she would could bring some balance in to what could be a shit show, and is now proved to be just that... At no point has she shown any true leadership skills other than trying to stay in power.

I have never been one for conspiracy theory but I just cant help but feel that the EU and high ranking remainers have engineered the current situation. I'm starting to feel that it will just not happen now

What other situation could there be?

[Woodsey]

Does anyone else feel that during the last 18 months or so that we are being railroaded in to Brexit failure?

Even as a Brexiteer, when TM was appointed PM I thought that it would be a good thing that as she was a remainer she would could bring some balance in to what could be a shit show, and is now proved to be just that... At no point has she shown any true leadership skills other than trying to stay in power.

I have never been one for conspiracy theory but I just cant help but feel that the EU and high ranking remainers have engineered the current situation. I'm starting to feel that it will just not happen now

Yes mate, been thinking the same thing, she must know it won’t get through parliament yet she still won’t even concede adjustments need to be made and push the envelope with the EU to please a wider group of people to get it through.

I think her plan is get this voted down then present the electorate with a stay or no deal scenario.

There will be riots on the streets when her betrayal is complete.

[bobAlike]

Does anyone else feel that during the last 18 months or so that we are being railroaded in to Brexit failure?

Even as a Brexiteer, when TM was appointed PM I thought that it would be a good thing that as she was a remainer she would could bring some balance in to what could be a shit show, and is now proved to be just that... At no point has she shown any true leadership skills other than trying to stay in power.

I have never been one for conspiracy theory but I just cant help but feel that the EU and high ranking remainers have engineered the current situation. I'm starting to feel that it will just not happen now

What other situation could there be?

A situation where the Government fought for what the electorate voted for. A Brexit that worked!

[bobAlike]

Does anyone else feel that during the last 18 months or so that we are being railroaded in to Brexit failure?

Even as a Brexiteer, when TM was appointed PM I thought that it would be a good thing that as she was a remainer she would could bring some balance in to what could be a shit show, and is now proved to be just that... At no point has she shown any true leadership skills other than trying to stay in power.

I have never been one for conspiracy theory but I just cant help but feel that the EU and high ranking remainers have engineered the current situation. I'm starting to feel that it will just not happen now

Yes mate, been thinking the same thing, she must know it won’t get through parliament yet she still won’t even concede adjustments need to be made and push the envelope with the EU to please a wider group of people to get it through.

I think her plan is get this voted down then present the electorate with a stay or no deal scenario.

There will be riots on the streets when her betrayal is complete.

Agreed on both counts. The way I feel about this at the moment I would leave the UK if it were not for family.

[RED-DOG]

Does anyone else feel that during the last 18 months or so that we are being railroaded in to Brexit failure?

Even as a Brexiteer, when TM was appointed PM I thought that it would be a good thing that as she was a remainer she would could bring some balance in to what could be a shit show, and is now proved to be just that... At no point has she shown any true leadership skills other than trying to stay in power.

I have never been one for conspiracy theory but I just cant help but feel that the EU and high ranking remainers have engineered the current situation. I'm starting to feel that it will just not happen now

What other situation could there be?

A situation where the Government fought for what the electorate voted for. A Brexit that worked!

Yes but what exactly does that mean?

The electorate voted for lies and an impossible dream. No matter how hard it fights, the government wont get a deal with all the benefits of EU membership without any of the obligations. That deal isn't on offer.

What 'Exactly' (because when you are making a deal you have to be exact about the terms) What exactly should the government ask for, that we haven't got in the current deal but that we have the bargaining power to get?


What should have happened is the brexiteers should have told the truth and said to the electorate "Look, if we leave it will be really difficult for a few years" T,hen if the people voted for that we should have just left.

[bobAlike]

Does anyone else feel that during the last 18 months or so that we are being railroaded in to Brexit failure?

Even as a Brexiteer, when TM was appointed PM I thought that it would be a good thing that as she was a remainer she would could bring some balance in to what could be a shit show, and is now proved to be just that... At no point has she shown any true leadership skills other than trying to stay in power.

I have never been one for conspiracy theory but I just cant help but feel that the EU and high ranking remainers have engineered the current situation. I'm starting to feel that it will just not happen now

What other situation could there be?

A situation where the Government fought for what the electorate voted for. A Brexit that worked!

Yes but what exactly does that mean?

The electorate voted for lies and an impossible dream. No matter how hard it fights, the government wont get a deal with all the benefits of EU membership without any of the obligations. That deal isn't on offer.

What 'Exactly' (because when you are making a deal you have to be exact about the terms) What exactly should the government ask for, that we haven't got in the current deal but that we have the bargaining power to get?


What should have happened is the brexiteers should have told the truth and said to the electorate "Look, if we leave it will be really difficult for a few years" T,hen if the people voted for that we should have just left.

I for one never believed it would be easy.

There were lies and miscommunications from both sides. Only a fool could fail to see that. The choice was leave or stay at no point did I think that leave did not mean leave in it's entirety. I was happy with that. The next few years would be all about the party policies based on the next general election manifestos. The electorate would then decide who's policies are best WRT the EU.

IMO when we voted to leave we should have all stood behind our great country united as a single undivided nation to negotiate with the EU. I dont honestly know if that would have worked but as soon as we stood divided the upperhand was not with us.

What I cant get over or out of my head is that there are people who are happy with the way things were/are in within the EU. It is full of beaurocracy that just doesnt work for all European nations. There are far too many diverse cultural differences, whats good for one nation is not necessarrily good for another.

I think the follwoing 2 quotes somes it up for me first being from Churchill;

"If you're going through hell, keep going.
Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts. Never, never, never give up."

and the second often accredited to Einstein;

“The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results”

[Pokerpops]

It is a sad state of affairs when both major parties are more interested in personal gain, power and narrow ideology rather than the national interest.

Setting aside the issue of people being in politics having a narrow ideology (I assume by narrow you mean extreme in some form or other). Being passionate about your beliefs is a quality to be admired even if we don’t agree with them.

Who would you say was the last political leader who was in the role for predominantly altruistic reasons? Someone who had a strong belief in their policies and was prepared to make sacrifices to deliver them.

Working backwards
TM - tbh, I think she is well-intentioned. She just seems to lack any beliefs.
DC - let’s not even go there
GB - well-intentioned, had his beliefs, didn’t really have the skills.
TB - worse than Cameron in terms of self-interest
JM - a cross between May and Brown

So we’re back to the most divisive figure in recent political history...

She had strong beliefs and strong skills and was, I believe, a true servant of her country. (I don’t agree with a lot of what she did, but she was a colossus in comparison to those who have followed her. And in comparison to those that went immediately before her (Wilson, Heath, Callaghan)

Think you dismiss Wilson a little too readily there..ask Tikay, hell have been quite mature when Wilson was in charge

I’ll grant you Wilson, but with some reservations about his decision to step down and the sense that had he been around in these ever more inquisitive times he might not have fared quite so well.
His list of legislation introduced is impressive though, a man of his times, the 60’s was a decade of opportunity and he drove us through that period.

[TightEnd]

Monster FT scoop: Barnier has proposed extending Brexit transition period til 2022 - which means another three years of this nightmare

(Prolonging free movement and EU payments would fuel Eurosceptic ire)

https://www.ft.com/content/91127120-eb4f-11e8-8180-9cf212677a57

[TightEnd]

1. May's deal might be dead.
2. That doesn't mean any other deal is alive.
3. Which would mean this deal is resurrected: May's deal or No Deal.
4. So opposition MPs who know No Deal is a disaster have a choice to make. Deal or No Deal?

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/alex-massie-there-is-no-miracle-third-way-on-brexit-5szs3mkhd