The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[TightEnd]

Now the DUP Supply and confidence agreement is breaking down, Labour say the Tories should stand aside because they cannot command a majority

This argument would be a more powerful one if they had actually defeated the government.

But extraordinarily yesterday Labour failed to get all opposition MPs to vote on its amendment to force the government to publish how proposed tax cuts would improve or worsen child poverty.

Not a great advert for Labour's ability to command a majority in the Commons even as the DUP's deal to support the government breaks down.

The vote failed by 5 even though the DUP voted against the government

Amazingly, Corbyn (it was his amendment) did not vote!

So he is at best complacent, the whips are possibly incompetent (DUP gave them advance notice they were voting with them, it is said) and its looks horrendous

Open goal, contrive to miss. Again.

[TightEnd]

Brexit no-deal impact assessment to be released by Bank of England next week
Changing publication dates will allow MPs to avail of Bank's analysis before any parliamentary vote on a Brexit deal


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/brexit-no-deal-impact-report-assessment-bank-england-release-treasury-mark-carney-a8642626.html

[RickBFA]

The ERG's apparent failure - once again - to get to 48 votes has performed a useful public service: highlighting the absence of Parliamentary support for no deal. The real alternative, unpalatable as it may be from a democratic standpoint, is Remain.

I don't think its that simple though. I was listening to a commentator the other day (an official from one of the leading EU countries, cant remember which one) who said the EU would force the UK to leave and then the door would be open to come back in on the EU's terms only at a future date.


If that view is correct and EU play hardball then the idea of just deciding to remain isnt really on the table as an easy solution.

[TightEnd]

The ERG's apparent failure - once again - to get to 48 votes has performed a useful public service: highlighting the absence of Parliamentary support for no deal. The real alternative, unpalatable as it may be from a democratic standpoint, is Remain.

I don't think its that simple though. I was listening to a commentator the other day (an official from one of the leading EU countries, cant remember which one) who said the EU would force the UK to leave and then the door would be open to come back in on the EU's terms only at a future date.


If that view is correct and EU play hardball then the idea of just deciding to remain isnt really on the table as an easy solution.

Its not an easy solution

it can only take place via "people's vote" and both major parties and their leaders are against it

but if parliament won't countenance no deal (might of course fall that way anyway) and her deal won't get through then how do they avoid sending it back to the people, some months hence?

I believe the mooted idea of extending A50 comes from this premise and is supported by the EU

then if "no deal" wins in a second ref then parliament enacts it.

[RickBFA]

The ERG's apparent failure - once again - to get to 48 votes has performed a useful public service: highlighting the absence of Parliamentary support for no deal. The real alternative, unpalatable as it may be from a democratic standpoint, is Remain.

I don't think its that simple though. I was listening to a commentator the other day (an official from one of the leading EU countries, cant remember which one) who said the EU would force the UK to leave and then the door would be open to come back in on the EU's terms only at a future date.


If that view is correct and EU play hardball then the idea of just deciding to remain isnt really on the table as an easy solution.

Its not an easy solution

it can only take place via "people's vote" and both major parties and their leaders are against it

but if parliament won't countenance no deal (might of course fall that way anyway) and her deal won't get through then how do they avoid sending it back to the people, some months hence?

I believe the mooted idea of extending A50 comes from this premise and is supported by the EU

then if "no deal" wins in a second ref then parliament enacts it.

All the more reason for May to push the national interest agenda with politicians from other parties.

She has nothing to lose now, somehow she has to persuade enough sensible Labour MP's to support the deal no matter what Corbyn says.

Corbyn and Sturgeon are keen to vote against it, not just because of their own beliefs on the subject but because it furthers their own wider political agenda's.

Hopefully enough see that in the situation we are in, the deal is the sensible way to move forward.

[TightEnd]

Each chaotic day brings a People’s Vote closer by rachel sylvester

"Remainer MPs have been pushed too far by Brexit extremists and will now stand and fight for what they believe"

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/peoples-vote-on-brexit-gets-likelier-with-every-chaotic-day-d8m2fs5q8

[TightEnd]

https://twitter.com/PoliticsJOE_UK/status/1064642837176860674

 

[RickBFA]

https://twitter.com/PoliticsJOE_UK/status/1064642837176860674

 

That is superb.

[MANTIS01]

The conspiracy theorists should relax. We've seen a total shit shower over the last 2yrs from a vast array of political clowns. It's difficult to comprehend this has all been a carefully orchestrated high-level plot of intrigue to Remain. Nope, it's just a shit shower, plain & simple. It's easy for peoples to talk the talk but walking the walk is much different. We find ourselves in an impossible position, divided country, all leverage gone, no credible options, sizeable economic slump ahead. Sorry, who is falling over themselves to seize this amazing opportunity? No wonder they couldn't get 48 letters. It's a simple shit shower where nobody knows what they're doing or what to do next. Lol they said following SAF at United was an impossible job. This job is just a head fuck nobody wants.

Over this period I've seen Labour shoot themselves in the foot with left wing principles when huge strides forward were possible. I've see a plethora of politicians flounce out of their jobs on principle. Parties divided clean in two to the detriment of all. Remain weaken our negotiating position with constant negative rhetoric to the detriment of the common good. I've seen the EU willingly accept economic downturn so 'principles of the union' are maintained. In fact almost everybody has put personal agenda before national interest or optimum economic strategy. It all lacks basic logic. Just need the wizards to understand that principled and illogical is indeed how people operate as standard. So all the banging heads on walls about the 'illogical' Brexit vote and the stupid principles of people was fruitless.  

Finally, discarding the vote and having another or deciding to just remain instead would be totally outrageous. Sad times when economics threatens democracy.  

[doubleup]

Rational people re-assess when they get new information.

Brexiters fingers-in-ears screaming does not project rationality.

[MANTIS01]

Complex political situations like Brexit are organic. We've learnt new information every day.

Uniting behind a democratic national decision is undoubtedly the most rational approach. The alternative is dithering around re-assessing as each new day dawns, offering up easy leverage to your negotiating oppos & dicking about with democracy as suits.

[RED-DOG]

The conspiracy theorists should relax. We've seen a total shit shower over the last 2yrs from a vast array of political clowns. It's difficult to comprehend this has all been a carefully orchestrated high-level plot of intrigue to Remain. Nope, it's just a shit shower, plain & simple. It's easy for peoples to talk the talk but walking the walk is much different. We find ourselves in an impossible position, divided country, all leverage gone, no credible options, sizeable economic slump ahead. Sorry, who is falling over themselves to seize this amazing opportunity? No wonder they couldn't get 48 letters. It's a simple shit shower where nobody knows what they're doing or what to do next. Lol they said following SAF at United was an impossible job. This job is just a head fuck nobody wants.

Over this period I've seen Labour shoot themselves in the foot with left wing principles when huge strides forward were possible. I've see a plethora of politicians flounce out of their jobs on principle. Parties divided clean in two to the detriment of all. Remain weaken our negotiating position with constant negative rhetoric to the detriment of the common good. I've seen the EU willingly accept economic downturn so 'principles of the union' are maintained. In fact almost everybody has put personal agenda before national interest or optimum economic strategy. It all lacks basic logic. Just need the wizards to understand that principled and illogical is indeed how people operate as standard. So all the banging heads on walls about the 'illogical' Brexit vote and the stupid principles of people was fruitless.  

Finally, discarding the vote and having another or deciding to just remain instead would be totally outrageous. Sad times when economics threatens democracy.  

So basically what you're saying is we would have been better off staying in.

[MANTIS01]

The conspiracy theorists should relax. We've seen a total shit shower over the last 2yrs from a vast array of political clowns. It's difficult to comprehend this has all been a carefully orchestrated high-level plot of intrigue to Remain. Nope, it's just a shit shower, plain & simple. It's easy for peoples to talk the talk but walking the walk is much different. We find ourselves in an impossible position, divided country, all leverage gone, no credible options, sizeable economic slump ahead. Sorry, who is falling over themselves to seize this amazing opportunity? No wonder they couldn't get 48 letters. It's a simple shit shower where nobody knows what they're doing or what to do next. Lol they said following SAF at United was an impossible job. This job is just a head fuck nobody wants.

Over this period I've seen Labour shoot themselves in the foot with left wing principles when huge strides forward were possible. I've see a plethora of politicians flounce out of their jobs on principle. Parties divided clean in two to the detriment of all. Remain weaken our negotiating position with constant negative rhetoric to the detriment of the common good. I've seen the EU willingly accept economic downturn so 'principles of the union' are maintained. In fact almost everybody has put personal agenda before national interest or optimum economic strategy. It all lacks basic logic. Just need the wizards to understand that principled and illogical is indeed how people operate as standard. So all the banging heads on walls about the 'illogical' Brexit vote and the stupid principles of people was fruitless.  

Finally, discarding the vote and having another or deciding to just remain instead would be totally outrageous. Sad times when economics threatens democracy.  

So basically what you're saying is we would have been better off staying in.

Quite the opposite. The principles that directed my vote were immigration and justice. I simply don't believe other countries should be telling UK who can settle in our country or how to govern our people. Being principled and illogical like most of the human race I would still stick to those principles despite the very obvious economic cost. Can you believe there was an article threatening a Mars bar drought? Yah happy for less confectionary choice on shelves as a consequence of my actions. People fretting don't appear to grasp our ultra opulent lifestyle here in UK. I'm sure every one of the 52% had their own principles which probably didn't revolve around economic fortune.

More so and again despite the economic cost I think we should be trailblazers as we always have been. Being part of a preferential club where we get favourable deals and those outside don't doesn't seem so fair or so free. Free trade, Fair trade? It's just closed deals for certain qualifying countries and fuck the rest. Why choose to be in the fuck the rest camp? Especially just for our own short term economic gain. Sorry but 'do as we say or you run out of Mars bars and other bad stuff will happen' turns me right off exclusive unions.  

Funny people stamping feet about the fraudulent referendum. Show me an election or indeed a trade deal that's pure as the driven???

[nirvana]

The conspiracy theorists should relax. We've seen a total shit shower over the last 2yrs from a vast array of political clowns. It's difficult to comprehend this has all been a carefully orchestrated high-level plot of intrigue to Remain. Nope, it's just a shit shower, plain & simple. It's easy for peoples to talk the talk but walking the walk is much different. We find ourselves in an impossible position, divided country, all leverage gone, no credible options, sizeable economic slump ahead. Sorry, who is falling over themselves to seize this amazing opportunity? No wonder they couldn't get 48 letters. It's a simple shit shower where nobody knows what they're doing or what to do next. Lol they said following SAF at United was an impossible job. This job is just a head fuck nobody wants.

Over this period I've seen Labour shoot themselves in the foot with left wing principles when huge strides forward were possible. I've see a plethora of politicians flounce out of their jobs on principle. Parties divided clean in two to the detriment of all. Remain weaken our negotiating position with constant negative rhetoric to the detriment of the common good. I've seen the EU willingly accept economic downturn so 'principles of the union' are maintained. In fact almost everybody has put personal agenda before national interest or optimum economic strategy. It all lacks basic logic. Just need the wizards to understand that principled and illogical is indeed how people operate as standard. So all the banging heads on walls about the 'illogical' Brexit vote and the stupid principles of people was fruitless.  

Finally, discarding the vote and having another or deciding to just remain instead would be totally outrageous. Sad times when economics threatens democracy.  

So basically what you're saying is we would have been better off staying in.

I remain sanguine (though that state of mind has been tested). Measured over a decent period I'm more convinced than ever it will prove to be the right choice. The problems with the EU aren't going away and are likely to get worse because the vision is narrow and shit and massively favours vested interest and corporatism over people. So Orwellian but perhaps with an extra player.

Planning on returning to my original conspiracy theory feelings in the next 4-5 weeks as the pressure mounts to engage reverse.

[nirvana]

Got the brochure for this place just in case, always worth having a plan B

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1fNkj5i0LM