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Poll
Question: How will you vote on December 12th 2019
Conservative - 19 (33.9%)
Labour - 12 (21.4%)
SNP - 2 (3.6%)
Lib Dem - 8 (14.3%)
Brexit - 1 (1.8%)
Green - 6 (10.7%)
Other - 2 (3.6%)
Spoil - 0 (0%)
Not voting - 6 (10.7%)
Total Voters: 56

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Author Topic: The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged  (Read 1327958 times)
StuartHopkin
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« Reply #19695 on: August 12, 2019, 04:45:23 PM »

Comprehensive in explaining past friction and tension between religious groups

What I’m really seeking is why a customs barrier would auto be the catalyst to turn friction into killings in 2019

If we are certain of this I think the EU refusing to budge on trade arrangements is curious. They don’t care if people are killed as long as principals of the union’s trade are upheld?

Good post by Tighty, but I have to agree with Mantis.

This is so important, Boris has to do something about the back stop to realistically get it through, why would the EU refuse to even discuss alternatives.

Not suggesting there are any, or that any of them would be acceptable, but to refuse to even brainstorm alternate ideas for a day seems overly stubborn?

 
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TightEnd
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« Reply #19696 on: August 12, 2019, 04:54:22 PM »

Boris has refused to meet the EU so far, as i understand it? Playing hardball etc

He is meeting Varadkhar this week at the Irish PMs request

The backstop was the UK's idea, inserted into the WA at the UK request.

Without a backstop, how do you keep the good friday agreement intact? thats why the backstop was invented in the first place, as a device to protect that, and with it peace.

to answer the previous question, the Nationalist community kicks off if there is a hard border (whole point of GFA is to allow free access). the Unionist community kicks off if Brexit leads to a bigger chance of unification

either way, a tricky spot for any negotiation.

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kukushkin88
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« Reply #19697 on: August 12, 2019, 05:09:51 PM »

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49321430

Double standard sexist bollocks.

Can you image the outrage if someone suggested an all white men solution?

There’s a excellent book called ‘The Descent of Man’ by Grayson Perry. Lots of it is applicable to situations like this. It doe seem to me that no one gets more outraged about stuff than white middle/old aged men.
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« Reply #19698 on: August 12, 2019, 05:14:58 PM »

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49321430

Double standard sexist bollocks.

Can you image the outrage if someone suggested an all white men solution?

There’s a excellent book called ‘The Descent of Man’ by Grayson Perry. Lots of it is applicable to situations like this. It doe seem to me that no one gets more outraged about stuff than white middle/old aged men.

I’m playing devils advocate. In today’s PC world this is certainly not equality in any sense of the word.

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« Reply #19699 on: August 12, 2019, 05:18:32 PM »

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49321430

Double standard sexist bollocks.

Can you image the outrage if someone suggested an all white men solution?

There’s a excellent book called ‘The Descent of Man’ by Grayson Perry. Lots of it is applicable to situations like this. It doe seem to me that no one gets more outraged about stuff than white middle/old aged men.


If it wasn't for women getting outraged in the first place, then the men would have nothing to react over.
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« Reply #19700 on: August 12, 2019, 05:54:07 PM »

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49321430

Double standard sexist bollocks.

Can you image the outrage if someone suggested an all white men solution?

There’s a excellent book called ‘The Descent of Man’ by Grayson Perry. Lots of it is applicable to situations like this. It doe seem to me that no one gets more outraged about stuff than white middle/old aged men.

I'd imagine in this specific case that plenty of Black and Brown women will be fairly dismissive of the nonsense from Lucas - it doesn't outrage me tbf, but confirms how ridiculous even previously sensible seeming politicians actually are.
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MANTIS01
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« Reply #19701 on: August 12, 2019, 05:55:13 PM »

If there’s an unavoidable temporary hard border due to EU not being able to navigate a tricky negotiating spot Irish people start murdering each other. That’s the outcome we’re being told is stone cold fact?
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« Reply #19702 on: August 12, 2019, 06:00:59 PM »

If there’s an unavoidable temporary hard border due to EU not being able to navigate a tricky negotiating spot Irish people start murdering each other. That’s the outcome we’re being told is stone cold fact?

A small number of people there need barely any reason so it might not be a fact but some level of disturbance would be inevitable I think.

It's a decent reason for people of good will to do the deal that was agreed at some point and stop blaming others for a potential no deal outcome.
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« Reply #19703 on: August 12, 2019, 07:24:50 PM »

Both sides in NI were killing each other for decades. Why did they stop because of the GFA?

Because the GFA allowed both sides to live their lives as if they'd won. Loyalists had it written down in law that the status of NI would never change unless it was the express wish of the majority of the people. The south changed their constitution to remove their claim on the north. On the other side Republicans could live their everyday lives as if they were living in a united Ireland. Cross the border at will, live on one side and work on the other - they could pretend the border wasn't there.

Whereas no deal Brexit brings the border back and removes one side from the carefully negotiated 'everyone wins' solution.
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MANTIS01
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« Reply #19704 on: August 12, 2019, 08:49:44 PM »

ok but then along came the EU and Brexit happened so a whole new reality began. Why are we looking at the past with these history lessons when it was a much simpler Ireland vs Uk coup? Cos beforehand all the violence could perhaps achieve something eg the GFI negotiated between these two parties.

But what would it achieve today with this astonishing new variable and much more complex landscape? To start all the murdering up and pressure 27 member states to capitulate to terror? Just saying it will be as per before is nuts because every aspect has changed massively compared to as per before.

Heck why don’t Ireland just feck off EU membership and hey presto no more murdering each other anymore. It’s just another unsolvable problem EU superstate dreams have created that doesn’t improve by mindless killing and throwing stones at police.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2019, 08:51:46 PM by MANTIS01 » Logged

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« Reply #19705 on: August 12, 2019, 09:01:24 PM »

Both sides in NI were killing each other for decades. Why did they stop because of the GFA?

Because the GFA allowed both sides to live their lives as if they'd won. Loyalists had it written down in law that the status of NI would never change unless it was the express wish of the majority of the people. The south changed their constitution to remove their claim on the north. On the other side Republicans could live their everyday lives as if they were living in a united Ireland. Cross the border at will, live on one side and work on the other - they could pretend the border wasn't there.

Whereas no deal Brexit brings the border back and removes one side from the carefully negotiated 'everyone wins' solution.

This is a good explanation.
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aaron1867
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« Reply #19706 on: August 12, 2019, 09:06:54 PM »

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49321430

Double standard sexist bollocks.

Can you image the outrage if someone suggested an all white men solution?

There’s a excellent book called ‘The Descent of Man’ by Grayson Perry. Lots of it is applicable to situations like this. It doe seem to me that no one gets more outraged about stuff than white middle/old aged men.


If it wasn't for women getting outraged in the first place, then the men would have nothing to react over.

Who do those women think they are, eh?

trying to get equal pay
more boardroom positions
fair maternity
high positions

i'm very surprised to see you still living in the past, lol jk
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kukushkin88
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« Reply #19707 on: August 12, 2019, 09:13:44 PM »

ok but then along came the EU and Brexit happened so a whole new reality began. Why are we looking at the past with these history lessons when it was a much simpler Ireland vs Uk coup? Cos beforehand all the violence could perhaps achieve something eg the GFI negotiated between these two parties.

But what would it achieve today with this astonishing new variable and much more complex landscape? To start all the murdering up and pressure 27 member states to capitulate to terror? Just saying it will be as per before is nuts because every aspect has changed massively compared to as per before.

Heck why don’t Ireland just feck off EU membership and hey presto no more murdering each other anymore. It’s just another unsolvable problem EU superstate dreams have created that doesn’t improve by mindless killing and throwing stones at police.

I’ve been trying to take a break from pointing what utter nonsense all of your posts are but this is next level ridiculous. The troubles began in ~1968, Ireland joined the EEC in 1973, the GFA was signed in 1998. Being a member of the EU is obviously not something Ireland will ever give up.
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« Reply #19708 on: August 12, 2019, 09:59:31 PM »

ok but then along came the EU and Brexit happened so a whole new reality began. Why are we looking at the past with these history lessons when it was a much simpler Ireland vs Uk coup? Cos beforehand all the violence could perhaps achieve something eg the GFI negotiated between these two parties.

But what would it achieve today with this astonishing new variable and much more complex landscape? To start all the murdering up and pressure 27 member states to capitulate to terror? Just saying it will be as per before is nuts because every aspect has changed massively compared to as per before.

Heck why don’t Ireland just feck off EU membership and hey presto no more murdering each other anymore. It’s just another unsolvable problem EU superstate dreams have created that doesn’t improve by mindless killing and throwing stones at police.

I’ve been trying to take a break from pointing what utter nonsense all of your posts are but this is next level ridiculous. The troubles began in ~1968, Ireland joined the EEC in 1973, the GFA was signed in 1998. Being a member of the EU is obviously not something Ireland will ever give up.


Lol. Obviously googled set of dates because the troubles in Ireland started way before  that Kush. Did Google not tel you about Michael Collins and when the IRA really started?
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« Reply #19709 on: August 12, 2019, 10:12:10 PM »

Just saying “utter nonsense” doesn’t present viable solutions to complex problems, it’s just wah wah wahing.

Ireland rejected the Lisbon treaty in their own referendum. Their relationship with EU has always been strained. Two thirds of their trade is outside EU. UK is their most vital trading partner and closest neighbour. Oh and of course Brexit will cause Irish folk to snap murder each other.

But obv they won’t give up EU membership just because they joined in 1973 (just like we did). Great point.
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