Blonde will make you STRONG

[Marky147]

Talking of food. I am going to up the protein intake and see what happens.

Before i start, I am at 34.5' waist and 15st 2lbs. Weighed myself today for the first time in a while and was surprised i gained weight despite the waist tumbling which i am going to suggest probably means i'm gaining muscle and losing fat which is nice.

From quick study online it looks like 0.65g/lb-0.84g/lb of protein per lb of body weight is ideal to build/maintain muscle? Anyone with any views on that?

Sick tekkers, Ant!

I've always gone 1-1 protein-b/weight, but I guess it's like almost everything, and what works for one, may not work for another.

[EvilPie]

Talking of food. I am going to up the protein intake and see what happens.

Before i start, I am at 34.5' waist and 15st 2lbs. Weighed myself today for the first time in a while and was surprised i gained weight despite the waist tumbling which i am going to suggest probably means i'm gaining muscle and losing fat which is nice.

From quick study online it looks like 0.65g/lb-0.84g/lb of protein per lb of body weight is ideal to build/maintain muscle? Anyone with any views on that?

Sick tekkers, Ant!

I've always gone 1-1 protein-b/weight, but I guess it's like almost everything, and what works for one, may not work for another.

I've always aimed for 1g per lb as an absolute minimum but 1.5g when I was training like a beast.

Like Marky says it will depend on your own personal requirements.

Have you watched the Arnie video I posted? Seriously can't believe that a Mr Olympia only consumed 1g pre lb of bodyweight. Must be some kind of freak of nature amongst a lot of other slightly less freaky freaks of nature.

[PokerBroker]

Talking of food. I am going to up the protein intake and see what happens.

Before i start, I am at 34.5' waist and 15st 2lbs. Weighed myself today for the first time in a while and was surprised i gained weight despite the waist tumbling which i am going to suggest probably means i'm gaining muscle and losing fat which is nice.

From quick study online it looks like 0.65g/lb-0.84g/lb of protein per lb of body weight is ideal to build/maintain muscle? Anyone with any views on that?

Sick tekkers, Ant!

I've always gone 1-1 protein-b/weight, but I guess it's like almost everything, and what works for one, may not work for another.

I've always aimed for 1g per lb as an absolute minimum but 1.5g when I was training like a beast.

Like Marky says it will depend on your own personal requirements.

Have you watched the Arnie video I posted? Seriously can't believe that a Mr Olympia only consumed 1g pre lb of bodyweight. Must be some kind of freak of nature amongst a lot of other slightly less freaky freaks of nature.

Mr Arnie Roid?

I actually tried responding to Ant earlier but my laptop died.  Similar to EvilPie though, what works for one person won't work for another, but when in a training phase I always aimed for around 1g min or protein per lb of bodyweight (as a minimum). 

I think the RDA is around 0.4 - 0.6g for someone who is relatively sedentary.  The thing to remember though is the harder you train the more protein you need, not just to help with muscle growth but also to repair the muscle after a strenuous work-out. 

If someone is tinkering along at the gym and doing a bit of everything they can get away with far less protein than say Joe Bloggs who is doing 5 x 5 at 75%.  Additionally someone 1 rep maxing at 100% will require more protein than Joe B. 

[iRaise]

Speaking of motivation I've had a really bad last week or so.

Everything was going brilliantly and I was lifting really good weights then suddenly I hit a major wall. Last week I only managed 34kg dumbbells whereas the week before I was up to 48kg!! I actually took Thursday off because I felt tired and I skipped this morning as well.

I think it's partly due to a bit of a niggling injury so hopefully it'll pass but it's very annoying especially skipping this morning.

Press ups took a huge hit last week as I only did them twice and also wasn't getting as many reps out as normal. Just one poor week and I've gone from 255 behind target to 485. You say that you're hoping to maintain motivation for 10 weeks and it just got me thinking about staying motivated for another 10 months!!

I've managed to do 120 tonight so that's cheered me up a bit and I'll definitely be at the gym tomorrow. It'll only be a steady session as I'm far from 100% but just to be there will be good enough.

Haha, I wanna offer to bet you so bad. I wanna wait til its like 5k to go in Dec. I don't normally go sort of all out, I think the training and dieting I will be doing over the next 10 weeks is together the hardest period I will have had. I have trained harder, but I haven't worried about KCALs so I ate to recover. I have dieted to a slightly higher amount, but with far less training. So already 10 weeks feels a long time. Woke up this morning looking forward to training today, so at least I am one day down haha.

Mentally I am worried, because I hate regressing in training, and I am sure I will get to that stage where I am just exhausted and don't want to go.

[iRaise]

Talking of food. I am going to up the protein intake and see what happens.

Before i start, I am at 34.5' waist and 15st 2lbs. Weighed myself today for the first time in a while and was surprised i gained weight despite the waist tumbling which i am going to suggest probably means i'm gaining muscle and losing fat which is nice.

From quick study online it looks like 0.65g/lb-0.84g/lb of protein per lb of body weight is ideal to build/maintain muscle? Anyone with any views on that?

Sick tekkers, Ant!

I've always gone 1-1 protein-b/weight, but I guess it's like almost everything, and what works for one, may not work for another.

I've always aimed for 1g per lb as an absolute minimum but 1.5g when I was training like a beast.

Like Marky says it will depend on your own personal requirements.

Have you watched the Arnie video I posted? Seriously can't believe that a Mr Olympia only consumed 1g pre lb of bodyweight. Must be some kind of freak of nature amongst a lot of other slightly less freaky freaks of nature.

You would be surprised. 2g/BWkg is deemed acceptable but high. I know a few people around the 1.5-1.8. They use it so they can get more carbs (energy) in. I personally think 2g is about right. I think any higher and you run the risk of 'wasting' kcals. Or maybe a better way of saying it, is having a different macro would lead to better performance/muscle retention.

And yeah, having a load of hormones do help, but I think there is a common misconception of people thinking they need more protein than they do.

Lets just go to a natural trainee for a second. They are at their genetic potential. Their bodies don't want to lose it, it is an evolutionary advantage to be at your maximum genetic cap.

The caveat does come in when you have more muscle than your genetic potential, PEDs, then you would have to eat slightly more protein as it is an evolutionary disadvantage to be that big.

Again another really interesting topic I have enjoyed learning a bit about.

Take home point for Ant I think, I have an ebook for vegan trainees, read it the other day just because I found it again and you have to understand you won't get as much protein in as a meat eater unless you supplement (I mean that on a consistent basis, not just a few days. And that is me quoting as opposed to paraphrasing) so setting your sights on 300g of protein a day is clearly crazy. 1g/lb BW or 2g/1kgBW is definitely a good place to start. I strongly advise you using a macro calculator to work it out more accurately. You can just google one. If you find Alan Aragons I recommend that, but not sure if he (anyone else) has put that into google.

[iRaise]

Talking of food. I am going to up the protein intake and see what happens.

Before i start, I am at 34.5' waist and 15st 2lbs. Weighed myself today for the first time in a while and was surprised i gained weight despite the waist tumbling which i am going to suggest probably means i'm gaining muscle and losing fat which is nice.

From quick study online it looks like 0.65g/lb-0.84g/lb of protein per lb of body weight is ideal to build/maintain muscle? Anyone with any views on that?

Sick tekkers, Ant!

I've always gone 1-1 protein-b/weight, but I guess it's like almost everything, and what works for one, may not work for another.

I've always aimed for 1g per lb as an absolute minimum but 1.5g when I was training like a beast.

Like Marky says it will depend on your own personal requirements.

Have you watched the Arnie video I posted? Seriously can't believe that a Mr Olympia only consumed 1g pre lb of bodyweight. Must be some kind of freak of nature amongst a lot of other slightly less freaky freaks of nature.

Mr Arnie Roid?

I actually tried responding to Ant earlier but my laptop died.  Similar to EvilPie though, what works for one person won't work for another, but when in a training phase I always aimed for around 1g min or protein per lb of bodyweight (as a minimum). 

I think the RDA is around 0.4 - 0.6g for someone who is relatively sedentary.  The thing to remember though is the harder you train the more protein you need, not just to help with muscle growth but also to repair the muscle after a strenuous work-out. 

If someone is tinkering along at the gym and doing a bit of everything they can get away with far less protein than say Joe Bloggs who is doing 5 x 5 at 75%.  Additionally someone 1 rep maxing at 100% will require more protein than Joe B. 

I have never heard of needing more protein depending on weight lifted. As far as I understand the heavier you lift the more your CNS fatigues. I might go and have a look into that, because that is quite interesting. You have any articles or something I can take a look at? Or people I can look into?

I don't know if this next bit will make sense:

But the harder you train the logic would be you need more protein for recovery. But if a bodybuilder if lifting at say 60-70% but doing 10x the volume what constitutes are harder?

What fatigues the muscles more?

Do your athletes need more protein than Matt and I for example. I mean they are so much stronger, but who's volume is higher? Off the top of my head I think it is hard to answer because of BW. We are heavier, so have a bigger metabolic need, but if they are training three times a day, they create a bigger metabolic capacity.

I hope I made sense there, and looking forward to yours and anyone else's input into what they think. I'm gonna have a think about this today and do some reading and see what I can figure out.

[iRaise]

First response from a guy who I really respect talking about energy balance, carb availability and volume.

Also a great point about OL or 1 rep max usually has less eccentric so therefore less muscular damage/stress.

From talking to 2-3 people the general consensus is energy balance and volume.

If anyone else has an opinion even anecdotal on this, would be really interested in hearing it.

[PokerBroker]

It's not just about the weight being lifted it's about the effort required  and the stress that put's on the muscle. 

My argument would be that an OL lifting single reps at a 100% will cause more soft tissue/muscle fatigue than someone doing 6 - 10 reps at 70%.  Pretty much the same way a desk jockey who walks to work in the morning could survive on less than a roofer going up and down a scaffolding every day.  There is an argument that would say the roofer would become more accustomed to his environment over the period of time but if you then stick your desk jockey on 1 mile steep incline walk to his work as a one off he'd need more energy from his food stuff to manage that.   In essence though the harder he has worked the more protein needed to aid recovery.  That's probably a bad example but it makes the point.   Going back to the bodybuilder - my experience of guys lifting to bulk up are all about the volume and not pushing the boundaries on maximum effort, as often as an Olympic Lifter therefore they become more accustomed to that work so the body doesn't require the same amount of energy.   

It's all relative.   I also mentioned earlier, I'm not a dietician/nutritionist and when I studied there wasn't as much emphasis on nutritional value, much of what I know about dietary is based on what we talk about in the gym is through changing what we done before.  If we hires a proper nutritionist to come in and come up with an individual plan for each lifter, apart from costing a small fortune we'd probably make more progress, but in a time were funding is being cut to all time lows it's difficult to get that benefit. 

_______________

Last year we had a lifter who missed the European Youth qualifier set by BWLA by 1kg.  2 months before the comp,   we were 100% certain he'd lift above the qualifier when he got there, in fact his opening lifts at a School Competition a month after it would have seen him take 5th place at the Europeans.   But due to funding he missed out.   The experience of getting to a big comp like that would have been invaluable to him as a lifter and acted as a massive boost to others in the gym.   He has 2 more years at Youth Level and this year we're aiming him at a medal.   But had he lifted last year and got to know the set-up and the like we'd have been far more confident.   

My point here is affordability is a massive issue in a minority sport. 

[iRaise]

It's not just about the weight being lifted it's about the effort required  and the stress that put's on the muscle. 

My argument would be that an OL lifting single reps at a 100% will cause more soft tissue/muscle fatigue than someone doing 6 - 10 reps at 70%.  Pretty much the same way a desk jockey who walks to work in the morning could survive on less than a roofer going up and down a scaffolding every day.  There is an argument that would say the roofer would become more accustomed to his environment over the period of time but if you then stick your desk jockey on 1 mile steep incline walk to his work as a one off he'd need more energy from his food stuff to manage that.   In essence though the harder he has worked the more protein needed to aid recovery.  That's probably a bad example but it makes the point.   Going back to the bodybuilder - my experience of guys lifting to bulk up are all about the volume and not pushing the boundaries on maximum effort, as often as an Olympic Lifter therefore they become more accustomed to that work so the body doesn't require the same amount of energy.   

It's all relative.   I also mentioned earlier, I'm not a dietician/nutritionist and when I studied there wasn't as much emphasis on nutritional value, much of what I know about dietary is based on what we talk about in the gym is through changing what we done before.  If we hires a proper nutritionist to come in and come up with an individual plan for each lifter, apart from costing a small fortune we'd probably make more progress, but in a time were funding is being cut to all time lows it's difficult to get that benefit. 

_______________

Last year we had a lifter who missed the European Youth qualifier set by BWLA by 1kg.  2 months before the comp,   we were 100% certain he'd lift above the qualifier when he got there, in fact his opening lifts at a School Competition a month after it would have seen him take 5th place at the Europeans.   But due to funding he missed out.   The experience of getting to a big comp like that would have been invaluable to him as a lifter and acted as a massive boost to others in the gym.   He has 2 more years at Youth Level and this year we're aiming him at a medal.   But had he lifted last year and got to know the set-up and the like we'd have been far more confident.   

My point here is affordability is a massive issue in a minority sport. 

I think your point about BB not going to maximal effort is questionable to say the least. That is VERY relative and subjective. I know a few people that would definitely disagree. It is also tough to compare because 10/10 for one person is 3/10 for another. On your analogy, I think it is still dependant on energy balance/volume of training (or in that case intensity of exercise). Of course we adapt to a stimulus. But you can't compare yourself to my dad who sits by a desk all day. The debate is so tough, because everyone is different, I don't think there is a magic answer, I think a range is the best way to go.

I am still unconvinced, after speaking to a few people, I think more protein is required for BB.

A nutritionist I know (who works with the womens GB team) was saying they have to get very creative with macros as to ensure you get recovery but stay in your weight class. He did say he doesnt drop protein for recovery purposes, but he goes off the 1.5-2g/1kgBW model in general.

As an aside, he was saying a Russian women shaved her head once to make weight. She ended up with silver or something.

I am struggling to see a case where a natural athlete needs more than 2kg from a physiological standpoint. Off course the psychological comes in. But protein isn't sparing. It is either used or excreted. So too much your body just get rids of it. Carbs and fat are stored.

[iRaise]

Legs today

Was tough and had to change a few things in my head to what I was planning on doing, but was fun. Finished with some BW stuff which was good.

Gave Nordic Curls a go, really like them but very poor at them, so that gives me a good focus over the next few weeks.

Been doing some one arm alternating hangs, crazy how much easier it is now I am lighter.

[Eso Kral]

I missed my 5.40am alarm today but managed to squeeze in the upper body day at 1.30 before picking up the kids from school so felt pleased to get it in and my weights have increased since the start (will post full improvements at the end of each 4 week cycle).

Plyo Legs tomorrow! Bring it on...

[Ant040689]

Cheers for the advice everyone.

Is there any scientific backing to claims that 1g+ per lb of bodyweight is necessary to not miss out on muscular gains/maintenance?

I am going from this website:

http://bayesianbodybuilding.com/the-myth-of-1glb-optimal-protein-intake-for-bodybuilders/

That ends with this summary:

Take Home Messages
•    There is normally no advantage to consuming more than 0.82g/lb (1.8g/kg) of protein per day to preserve or build muscle once you’re past the novice level as a natural trainee. This already includes a mark-up, since most research finds no more benefits after 0.64 g/lb.
•    Optimal protein intake decreases with training age, because your body becomes more efficient at preventing protein breakdown resulting from training and less protein is needed for the increasingly smaller amount of muscle that is built after each training session.

It appears to be backed up with clinical studies to support the conclusion. I would like to reiterate I don't believe in any one thing and I am just trying to work it out.

Iraise made a good point that being vegan makes 1g per lb very tough without supplements, but I really want to stick with actual food rather than go onto those.

I am going to have a breakdown of what my current diet is generally on a given day, note the calories/proteins/fats/carbs and then build a plan with an increase of protein, preferrably to 136g which would be around 0.64g/1lb protein.

Currently, amusingly, from rough estimates I think I am only on 100g-112g protein a day which equates to bang on 0.5g/lb, which isn't that far off what the above website says and is maybe why I am still quite well built muscularly and haven't seen many problems.

Should be an interesting case study to see if I notice anything by increasing it to 0.64g+ per pound, and by the end of the week i will have the lowdown on my current diet and the new one. Bit of a ballache counting everything, but I will.

Then in the next month or two I will mention if I feel my muscles recover better, are stronger etc. Will be tough to attribute any changes to the protein increase alone with other variables at play but there could be some correlation with potential positive/negative results.

I am open to trying to get up to closer to 1g per lb if i feel I need to if what I am soon trying feels like it's cutting me short.

I guess it's a progression, don't have to jump immediately onto the optimal, getting there gradually also works especially if you have the fundamentals down.

Which imo are a willingness to train hard regularly and keep a healthy diet and thankfully I'm set on that. So this fine tuning process is a lovely luxury

[iRaise]

Cheers for the advice everyone.

Is there any scientific backing to claims that 1g+ per lb of bodyweight is necessary to not miss out on muscular gains/maintenance?

I am going from this website:

http://bayesianbodybuilding.com/the-myth-of-1glb-optimal-protein-intake-for-bodybuilders/

That ends with this summary:

Take Home Messages
•    There is normally no advantage to consuming more than 0.82g/lb (1.8g/kg) of protein per day to preserve or build muscle once you’re past the novice level as a natural trainee. This already includes a mark-up, since most research finds no more benefits after 0.64 g/lb.
•    Optimal protein intake decreases with training age, because your body becomes more efficient at preventing protein breakdown resulting from training and less protein is needed for the increasingly smaller amount of muscle that is built after each training session.

It appears to be backed up with clinical studies to support the conclusion. I would like to reiterate I don't believe in any one thing and I am just trying to work it out.

Iraise made a good point that being vegan makes 1g per lb very tough without supplements, but I really want to stick with actual food rather than go onto those.

I am going to have a breakdown of what my current diet is generally on a given day, note the calories/proteins/fats/carbs and then build a plan with an increase of protein, preferrably to 136g which would be around 0.64g/1lb protein.

Currently, amusingly, from rough estimates I think I am only on 100g-112g protein a day which equates to bang on 0.5g/lb, which isn't that far off what the above website says and is maybe why I am still quite well built muscularly and haven't seen many problems.

Should be an interesting case study to see if I notice anything by increasing it to 0.64g+ per pound, and by the end of the week i will have the lowdown on my current diet and the new one. Bit of a ballache counting everything, but I will.

Then in the next month or two I will mention if I feel my muscles recover better, are stronger etc. Will be tough to attribute any changes to the protein increase alone with other variables at play but there could be some correlation with potential positive/negative results.

I am open to trying to get up to closer to 1g per lb if i feel I need to if what I am soon trying feels like it's cutting me short.

I guess it's a progression, don't have to jump immediately onto the optimal, getting there gradually also works especially if you have the fundamentals down.

Which imo are a willingness to train hard regularly and keep a healthy diet and thankfully I'm set on that. So this fine tuning process is a lovely luxury

That is so interesting, Menno has caused HUGE stirs in the health and fitness industry with that. I would like to say he is the ONLY person I have come across that has gone against the grain, and although I think he is really really smart, I do feel that is more of a click bait thing for his site. I don't want to say he is wrong, because he is WAY smarter and more experienced than me and gets fantastic results as a trainer and educator. So I am huge fan and advocate. But you have literally picked the ONLY source I would acknowledge as a legit person. Don't fear supplements, fear steroids. They are immensely different. Most supps dont work, but to say to elite-ist and at time ignorant to ignore supps.

Being 110 is low, very low. I am not saying you can't survive, you are here. But you keep telling me you ache, so the proof is probably there. I would go off 1.8 I tend to do that with women, I actually do 1.7, just to not scare them with a big number. But if you aren't willing to supplement, maybe 1.8 is just too much to ask for. I am not sure.

Optimal isn't just from protein. It is from technique, recovery, mindset, program design etc etc etc.

How did you find Menno's site by the way?

[Ant040689]

I found it typing 1g per lb of bodyweight weight protein into Google. I'm happy you have legitimised the source.

Brainwave came to me that my technique could be falling short and causing aches. Two things of concern. I don't think I was doing the kneeling row properly putting the emphasis on my arms instead of back and I think I always went too heavy.

I should go light enough that the technique is superb, go to failure and then go through my sets. Not go to what I can just about handle, risk a strain, and because I struggle with it somewhat do improper technique.

Another bit of homework on top of the macros is to study videos of proper technique for the various lifts. I have gone into it all cackhanded.

At the risk of opening another can of worms.

How does going at 30% 1 rep max to failure sound?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Training_to_failure

"A 2010 study concluded that training to failure with lower loads with more repetitions can be more beneficial for muscle building than using higher loads with fewer repetitions. In this study, participants who trained to failure with a weight equal to 30% of their single repetition maximum ("1RM") had higher levels of muscle-building proteins 24 hours after their training session than participants who trained to failure with a weightthat was 90% of their maximum."

I think my new motto is to never feel like I'm going so hard I'm risking a strain but I generally feel like I might near the end of sets, and thus I probably hurt my muscles more than I should.

Definitely pursuing the protein as well, but I think this could be the main source of problems. I need help.

[iRaise]

You will literally make 1000s mistakes but so does everyone. This is why a coach saves you 10x the time and 10x the money.

Form is important, but technique can still be individual. Biomechanics matter. So if you youtube a technique and see Scott Herman, mainly cos he SEO's the fuck out of it, well he is like 5'8 and been doing it for 15 yeaars.

Erm, 30% sounds kinda low. But try it and seem you can't really go wrong if you listen to feedback (from your body). I don't 'like' training til failure. Speshly for a beginner, seems outrageously stupid. Train 8-9/10. Unless you want to compete at elite levels I wouldn't advise training til failure. Would love to hear Matt's thoughts in terms of what he had to sacrifice in training til failure in terms fo quality of life.. i.e. asleep by 9? Too tired to go out? Miss days? Grumpy etc? Injuries from it?

I am sure I must have but can't remember a time I did train til failure. By that I mean consistently, I have of course done X until I can't do more, but I have XYZ etc in a session.

The simple answer is often the obvious, if you are eating like 80g of protein a day and lifting heavy weight on a regular basis (heavy is relative) you're gonna be stiff.