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Author Topic: Official cryptocurrency thread (Bitcoin, Ethereum, Altcoin)  (Read 261079 times)
RED-DOG
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« Reply #1290 on: February 28, 2022, 08:24:28 AM »

I agree with all that, but how can you run a business with a currency that can change so much in value over very short periods?
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« Reply #1291 on: February 28, 2022, 09:02:49 AM »

I agree with all that, but how can you run a business with a currency that can change so much in value over very short periods?


I don’t agree with all that, but I still think Tom’s question is very pertinent.

Holding your day to day assets in a form that has such extreme volatility is impractical at best. So why would you expect the average Canadian trucker to have accessible crypto to replace the frozen funds? If they did, how would you expect them to use that crypto to fuel their truck?
Ditto the average Ukrainian.

For all that your ‘ordinary hard working Russian citizen’ may want to use crypto the businesses he would fund may well be the ones run by Putin’s Poodles. How do we apply meaningful sanctions on the oligarchs when they are burying their wealth in binary form?



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« Reply #1292 on: February 28, 2022, 03:47:27 PM »

I agree with all that, but how can you run a business with a currency that can change so much in value over very short periods?


I don’t agree with all that, but I still think Tom’s question is very pertinent.

Holding your day to day assets in a form that has such extreme volatility is impractical at best. So why would you expect the average Canadian trucker to have accessible crypto to replace the frozen funds? If they did, how would you expect them to use that crypto to fuel their truck?
Ditto the average Ukrainian.

For all that your ‘ordinary hard working Russian citizen’ may want to use crypto the businesses he would fund may well be the ones run by Putin’s Poodles. How do we apply meaningful sanctions on the oligarchs when they are burying their wealth in binary form?





Once again. And I feel like I have said this many times on this thread. I am not advocating holding your entire net wealth in Bitcoin. What I am suggesting is holding a % of your net wealth in crypto, with Bitcoin being the most stable and reliable one currently. The fact that the government can just decide to freeze all your assets when you haven't actually been charged and judged to have committed a crime is deeply worrying. Yes it is more volatile than many fiat currencies and I would suggest viewing it as a hybrid of a currency and an investment. If you are bullish on the future of crypto and Bitcoin then even better. If you are a business you have it on the balance sheet.

It is interesting that some of the countries where crypto might be the most useful. China, Iran, Russia are the countries where the government is most against it because they want to control everything (generalisation yes, but state control is important in these places). But if these countries are cut off from Swift, Visa, Mastercard etc, then crypto is a viable alternative.

Many people in the world can't even get a bank account, yet crypto enables one person to to transfer it to another anywhere in the world without the need for any financial institution or intermediary as a third party and nobody can stop you or block your payment. Isn't that amazing?

As for how to spend crypto. Well you can buy things with it, you can exchange it for goods and services or you can trade it for other crypto or other currencies. Several people on this thread have said they do this. I believe one person said they did their shopping at Tesco using it. Or at least they could if they wanted.

I have no idea how the Canadian truckers handled it. I don't agree with their viewpoints and suspect that many of them might be fringe nutcases. I wouldn't suspect the average trucker to have a BTC wallet ready to go. But actually there was fundraising in crypto for them and as far as I understand, one of the most tech savvy was trying to set it up for them all and the Canadian government were also trying to block crypto wallets. So I am not sure how it turned out. This is a big case in point as to why privacy coins like Monero which are anonymous might have a big role to play in the future.

The use case for crypto grows every week, every month. My girlfriend has been trying to transfer funds to a couple of specific charities in Ukraine these past few days but it hasn't been possible. If only they used crypto, maybe we could get it done easier.

With regards to those Russian oligarchs then yes, sanctions and removing Russia from the Swift payment system (though of course not the bank that deals with the sales of gas! Oh no) will harm some of them and make life difficult. Let's remember that Russia has 144 million people. How many 'oligarchs' are there compared to normal everyday folk? I suspect many Russians do not want this war but they are stuck with it and their life will get worse as a result of it as their standards of living fall and are cut off from the rest of the world. I would imagine that the oligarchs are smart and calculating people and I'd be very surprised if they didn't have part of their wealth already in crypto for precisely this kind of eventuality. I would not expect this to be reported anywhere though of course.

Pokerpops doesn't see a problem with currency being centralised, and that's fine. It doesn't affect you if it is. Like most British people including myself, You likely have a bank account with a UK high street bank I guess. Perhaps some investments and a pension. Probably a debit card for day to day spending, maybe a credit card. You can use a cash machine if you need physical cash.

If you have trust in British financial institutions and the government, then it is all no problem and hopefully it remains that way for you. If you don't piss off the government or the global financial system doesn't keel over then it will likely be fine and may never need to use crypto. A lot of people are not in this position. So once again I urge you to think outside your particular life in the UK and to people all around the world and see the possible use cases for cryptocurrency for people with different life situations, for people who live in countries with authoritarian governments, for people who live in countries with financial institutions that are not trustworthy. For people who have businesses and want to trade but their country is persona non grata and because they are born or live in that country they are stuck with that. For people who don't trust the banking system or simply want to hedge by diversifying their fiat wealth and placing some of it in crypto. And so on.

I guess many people might think money should be state controlled so the state can turn it off or on again for people and weaponise it against people they don't like. Either their own citizens or other people around the world.

Personally I don't trust the government or visa, mastercard or any bank to have my best interests at heart.
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« Reply #1293 on: February 28, 2022, 04:19:30 PM »

"The use case for crypto grows every week, every month"

Well, maybe

But in terms of the points you have raised

There were hundreds of Canadians who had their assets frozen - for less than a week

And that was hundreds out of a population of 38 million

The UK has Unexplained Wealth Orders at it's disposal - that doesn't necessarily have to tie in banks; they can seize property with that

Al Capone (and several others) were taken down by accountancy; finance has always been a weapon to use against crime and disorder

Yes, there are unstable economies in the world that have generally used US dollars as their unofficial currency because it's much more stable than their own currency and places like that might have find a benefit to switching to a cryptocurrency.

But 99% of the population in an average (rich, western) country will never need to transfer money internationally, 99.999...% of the population will never have a run in with state sanctioned asset seizure

And about that level probably do trusts the banks with their money, and national governments to regulate them

They don't have to have your best interests at heart - the banks want to make money, the governments want the banks to grease the wheels of the economy - they only have to have their own best interests at heart and that will keep everything running smoothly for you.

That's why monetary shocks like 1929, 1987 and 2008 stand out - because they're so unusual

For context about 5% was wiped off the world economy in 2008 - one of the worst obviously

Cryptocurrencies tend to have that level of variance several times a year - and there is no self interest from anyone behind them to protect any consumer.


EDIT and in case it seems too much like dismissing those in non-rich, non-western countries - yes you make a reasonable point that if you're a citizen in somewhere like Zimbabwe and want to do business with someone in Belarus then cryptocurrencies might well be a good choice - but I question it's relevance to the vast majority of people who are ever likely to read this thread
« Last Edit: February 28, 2022, 04:22:16 PM by Jon MW » Logged

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« Reply #1294 on: February 28, 2022, 04:46:42 PM »

Right so if the government can seize my property and freeze all my money at any time if I take part in a protest that they don't agree with, then if I am going to undertake any political activity, even if it seems somewhat benign - then I surely want to have some decentralised wealth as a back up so I know I can pay my rent and eat if the government decides it doesn't like what I am doing. The Canadian truckers protest is the thin end of the wedge here. First a couple of hundred Canadian truckers. Now that policy has been rolled out once in Canada then I guess it can be done so again. For longer, against more people. Using money as a weapon because the financial system is centralised and government controlled.

I would imagine the Blonde Poker forum is mostly made up of 30+ British men with enough disposable income to play poker on the side for fun profit or indeed for a living. So perhaps no, they don't really need crypto right now. However I suspect every body in this thread has participated in some kind of international financial transaction. Whether it is through playing online poker, when travelling abroad, buying something online etc. We use Visa and Mastercard or paypal for things like this and it works fine. Until they ban us because they don't agree with our politics or our religion or because we are a sex worker, or because we have a bad credit score or because we are Russian or Iranian. Or until they decide they aren't servicing that country or until they decide to hike up their fees and gouge us because they act as a monopoly and we have no alternative.

It just annoys me when people are saying crypto is useless, pointless or irrelevant just because it doesn't help them in their own specific life situation. I just want people to be open minded to it. That is all I am asking.

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« Reply #1295 on: February 28, 2022, 05:03:00 PM »

Right so if the government can seize my property and freeze all my money at any time if I take part in a protest that they don't agree with...

It wasn't the protest - I think it was more all the criminal damage. Even if it was just blocking the public highway - you know we already arrested the people doing the roadway blocking for the Insulate Britain protests. Along with the Unexplained Wealth Orders (a) you are correct it could happen in the UK and (b) it won't - to you - unless you do something illegal. That might be an illegal protest - but it will still be illegal and it would be up to you to decide how strongly you feel about it.

You can call the Canadian truckers thing the thin edge of the wedge - but the Canadian government used that power for the first time with this. The unexplained wealth orders could be called the thin end of the wedge - the truth is, they're just not. They're ways to tackle crime, and they're needed because people are very good at "getting away with it"


...Until they ban us because they don't agree with our politics or our religion or because we are a sex worker, or because we have a bad credit score or because we are Russian or Iranian. Or until they decide they aren't servicing that country or until they decide to hike up their fees and gouge us because they act as a monopoly and we have no alternative....


How likely do you think this is for, say, 99% of the population of the UK? (for example)


...
It just annoys me when people are saying crypto is useless, pointless or irrelevant just because it doesn't help them in their own specific life situation. I just want people to be open minded to it. That is all I am asking.

Effectively what you seem to be saying is that cryptocurrencies are useful if you are in a situation where the penalty, loss and instability of using the cryptocurrency are still less than the risk, instability and availability of using your own countries system.

Like I said (quite early in this thread, not just now) - crypto might be a useful reserve currency, like US dollars, for a few places in the world; but there's still no evidence to suggest that it could be anything other than either a super niche currency or a particularly gamble-y sort of "investment" mechanism.
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« Reply #1296 on: February 28, 2022, 05:31:09 PM »

How likely do you think this is for, say, 99% of the population of the UK? (for example)?

Good question. The point is that the goalposts can change. Who would have thought a few years ago that in Western Europe if you rejected a vaccination you could be fined, you could have a criminal record, you could be excluded from much of public life and banned from entering many public places. (I am fully vaccinated and believe everyone should be btw). Would it surprise me to see financial control being used against anti vaxxers in Western Europe, probably not. Now we are getting into hundreds of thousands of people. And tens of millions haven't received a vaccination. Why not make their lives financially more difficult to try and coerce them into doing it by turning their money off? How about Russians living in the EU, Canada, US if the war continues and gets worse. Not oligarchs, just normal people. The government can change the rules at any time. We trust our governmental system to be honest and accountable and it is one of the more stable ones. But we live in strange uncertain times and 2008 showed just how fragile the global economic system actually is.

Effectively what you seem to be saying is that cryptocurrencies are useful if you are in a situation where the penalty, loss and instability of using the cryptocurrency are still less than the risk, instability and availability of using your own countries system.

I would put it more like this. You shouldn't use your entire bankroll to enter one poker tournament. You shouldn't have your stocks portfolio invested in one company. You shouldn't have all your money invested in one particular ETF. You shouldn't bet a large % of your wealth on a short priced sure thing. You should diversify and minimise your risk of ruin. In Bitcoin I don't see very much risk of it going to 0. I consider it solid and blue chip albeit more volatile then the $ or £. Of course if you are scrolling down coinmarketcap to the second or third page of cryptos or getting into NFTs then this is becoming a punt. Even some NFTs are much more solid.

The Financial Services Compensation Scheme states that the first £85,000 you invest in any financial institution is protected should it go bust and the government will repay you. I hope so but as I have stated many times in this thread, I don't trust the government and especially as I don't own any property, I wouldn't mind hedging some of my money in something else nevertheless.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2022, 05:32:40 PM by bergeroo » Logged
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« Reply #1297 on: February 28, 2022, 05:51:07 PM »

The Russian government has just banned residents from transferring money abroad.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/putin-russia-sanctions-economy-ukraine-b2025043.html
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« Reply #1298 on: February 28, 2022, 07:10:16 PM »

Do crypto bros, in general, support mandatory lockdowns, mandatory vaccinations etc or is there no generalisation to be had there. Are they more like the gen pop with probs 80:20 demanding to be locked down and jabbed.

Ima listen to them more intently if they're like full on fuck yr fiat money you untrustworthy tyrants and fuck your mandates too.



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« Reply #1299 on: February 28, 2022, 11:50:02 PM »

I see a lot of stuff like the posts from Bergeroo extolling the virtues of crypto as a means of payment. I understand that it is possible to fund a payment card with the stuff and yes, to pay for your weekly groceries from it.
The issue with that for me is that the price of your weekly shop is now dependent on price movements over which you have zero control.
Why is the price so volatile?
https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/052014/why-bitcoins-value-so-volatile.asp
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« Reply #1300 on: March 02, 2022, 09:17:46 AM »

I find all this fascinating

One of bitcoins biggest players was on the David McWilliams podcast arguing that bitcoin is a speculative asset rather than a currency, and that labelling it a currency was a mistake from the start


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://open.spotify.com/show/6dzfsIlMVEdKVSfSd1mclr&ved=2ahUKEwjq77fWi6f2AhX6QUEAHe4SBagQFnoFCJIBEAE&usg=AOvVaw1BtFRs0hHbl0PJNM5wXVup
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« Reply #1301 on: March 02, 2022, 11:37:49 AM »

I find all this fascinating

One of bitcoins biggest players was on the David McWilliams podcast arguing that bitcoin is a speculative asset rather than a currency, and that labelling it a currency was a mistake from the start


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://open.spotify.com/show/6dzfsIlMVEdKVSfSd1mclr&ved=2ahUKEwjq77fWi6f2AhX6QUEAHe4SBagQFnoFCJIBEAE&usg=AOvVaw1BtFRs0hHbl0PJNM5wXVup

I don’t know who David McWilliams, but he’s right.

"A LOT OF PEOPLE WILL LOSE A LOT OF MONEY" | DAVID MCWILLIAMS ON THE GROWTH OF CRYPTO IN FOOTBALL


https://www.otbsports.com/soccer/a-lot-of-people-will-lose-a-lot-of-money-david-mcwilliams-on-the-growth-of-crypto-in-football-1300995
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« Reply #1302 on: March 02, 2022, 02:33:00 PM »

`````````
I find all this fascinating

One of bitcoins biggest players was on the David McWilliams podcast arguing that bitcoin is a speculative asset rather than a currency, and that labelling it a currency was a mistake from the start


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://open.spotify.com/show/6dzfsIlMVEdKVSfSd1mclr&ved=2ahUKEwjq77fWi6f2AhX6QUEAHe4SBagQFnoFCJIBEAE&usg=AOvVaw1BtFRs0hHbl0PJNM5wXVup

I don’t know who David McWilliams, but he’s right.

"A LOT OF PEOPLE WILL LOSE A LOT OF MONEY" | DAVID MCWILLIAMS ON THE GROWTH OF CRYPTO IN FOOTBALL


https://www.otbsports.com/soccer/a-lot-of-people-will-lose-a-lot-of-money-david-mcwilliams-on-the-growth-of-crypto-in-football-1300995

Lets be honest. British football fans are just sources of income to a football team which uses sentiment and emotion to milk the fan for as much as they can. Whether it is overpriced tickets, overpriced food, overpriced replica shirts, sky sports subscription, memorabilia and all the other tat in the club shop. So yes of course a football team would want to get into NFT as it is another thing to sell to their fans. If fans want to hold a digital NFT, why can't the buy one to show their support in the same way they spend money on other stuff. Is my Birmingham City FC branded bath towel any more legit and valuable than an NFT showing Trevor Francis scoring an amazing goal?
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« Reply #1303 on: March 02, 2022, 02:39:58 PM »

An NFT is often called digital art. My own personal opinion which is probably not shared by many is that art is basically a giant scam. A massive rip off. A waste of time. Useless.

So it follows that digital art would be the same. People get ripped of for paintings and sculptures every day. They also sell for ridiculous prices the same as some NFTs have done (bored apes). So what is the difference? I wonder if David McWilliams has any paintings on the wall of his very nice house. And if he considers himself also exploited?
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« Reply #1304 on: March 02, 2022, 03:00:19 PM »

what I mean is that there is some good art. But 99% is sh*t. Same for NFTs.
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