blonde poker forum
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
March 29, 2024, 12:31:34 AM

Login with username, password and session length
Search:     Advanced search
2272476 Posts in 66752 Topics by 16945 Members
Latest Member: Zula
* Home Help Arcade Search Calendar Guidelines Login Register
+  blonde poker forum
|-+  Community Forums
| |-+  The Lounge
| | |-+  schoolgirl who joined IS but wants to come home.
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
Pages: 1 ... 24 25 26 27 [28] 29 30 31 32 Go Down Print
Author Topic: schoolgirl who joined IS but wants to come home.  (Read 59359 times)
Karabiner
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 22737


James Webb Telescope


View Profile
« Reply #405 on: April 17, 2019, 11:08:52 AM »

I would have thought it fairly obvious that "terrorists" do not see themselves as such so "self-confessed terrorists" do not actually exist.

I think that one aspect is being overlooked and that is the religious appeal of "the caliphate" to the ultra-orthodox Muslims, one of whom was Begum when she went to Syria.
Logged

"Golf is deceptively simple and endlessly complicated. It satisfies the soul and frustrates the intellect. It is at the same time maddening and rewarding and it is without a doubt the greatest game that mankind has ever invented." - Arnold Palmer aka The King.
Rexas
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1963


View Profile
« Reply #406 on: April 17, 2019, 11:53:19 AM »

What terrified me was British girl shrugging off severed heads rolling around in the back yard.


Pretty sure the folk moaning about fair trials etc, are the same that moan about austerity and our Government clamping down in all the wrong areas........

I’m trying to figure out what you mean. You’re saying you’ve identified a link between people who support human rights and people who disapprove of government policy that punishes (often kills as discussed extensively itt) the poor and vulnerable while favouring the very wealthiest? I hope you weren’t working on that for long, it’s not exactly Sherlock Holmes.


You know exactly what I mean, but as ever, your efforts to try and prove yourself,smarter(probably), funnier( not a chance), and more compassionate(misplaced) override everything.

I am all for fair trials, but not for wasting money when the evidence is clear cut and for all to see.

Man filmed running kid over on crossing. Sounds pretty cut and dry. Could be a multitude of reasons. Give him a fair trial. Correct.

Girl who openly tells the world she wants to leave the country because she hates it and believes in the cause of terrorism, then wants to come home, and in interviews isn't sorry for what she saw and was involved with, is a no brained.

It's a waste of money that can be used to bridge the austerity gap. Deep down, you know it, but have to twist it round to try and wriggle out of it because you know I'm right.

Let's deprive some kid of his cancer treatment so we can waste tens of thousands on a trial we all know is wrong and the outcome obvious.

Nice ethics KKK

That’s embarrassing. Our system of justice is one of the last things we should abandon. You support the government that is responsible for austerity, I know it is an entirely unnecessary political weapon and oppose it at every opportunity.

It’s just a simple fact that you don’t know the evidence in the Begum case, none of us do and that’s why it should be tested at trial. If she’s guilty of crimes by all means punish her. Let’s not get distracted by hysterical people who get scared and irrational every time they hear the word ‘terrorist’.


Proving again you dont read what I said.

I mentioned before their threat doesn't bother me. It doesnt inhibit my travelling etc.

What evidence do you need in the Begum case to say that she should be welcomed back then smartarse?

Don't disappear for the day, and hope it gets lost in the the next 24 hours.

What can a court case prove to you that we don't already know?

Did you read the papers when she left? Her statements and those of her friends? Her interviews when trying to come back?

Tell me what you think a trial will prove please. "her innocence" wont wash.

Excuse me, what? So what has been reported in the media should decide someone's guilt or not? Our legal system is based on needing to prove someone's guild before a court of law, it's not a perfect system but it's a hell of a lot better than what you've just suggested. This isn't about Begum and shouldn't be about her, it's about the integrity of our legal system. Once you start saying it shouldn't apply to someone because it won't prove anything, you start deciding where that line will be drawn, and it's a line that should never exist if our freedom is worth anything.
Logged

humour is very much encouraged, however theres humour and theres not.
I disrepectfully agree with Matt Smiley
RED-DOG
International Lover World Wide Playboy
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 46911



View Profile WWW
« Reply #407 on: April 17, 2019, 12:07:18 PM »

In our justice system, someone is an alleged criminal until he's been tried even if the judge and jury watched them commit the crime.

Innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. It might be inconvenient in some circumstances, but it's the only way.

You can argue as much as you like, but to have any credibility you have tell me who should have the absolute power to decide what constitutes a CLEAR CUT crime and be able to convict without trial.   

Adz has answered this to a limited extent, he does.

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean.
Logged

The older I get, the better I was.
nirvana
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 7804



View Profile
« Reply #408 on: April 17, 2019, 12:59:58 PM »

In our justice system, someone is an alleged criminal until he's been tried even if the judge and jury watched them commit the crime.

Innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. It might be inconvenient in some circumstances, but it's the only way.

You can argue as much as you like, but to have any credibility you have tell me who should have the absolute power to decide what constitutes a CLEAR CUT crime and be able to convict without trial.   

Is it the Queen?
Logged

sola virtus nobilitat
BigAdz
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 8152



View Profile
« Reply #409 on: April 17, 2019, 01:23:22 PM »

In our justice system, someone is an alleged criminal until he's been tried even if the judge and jury watched them commit the crime.

Innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. It might be inconvenient in some circumstances, but it's the only way.

You can argue as much as you like, but to have any credibility you have tell me who should have the absolute power to decide what constitutes a CLEAR CUT crime and be able to convict without trial.   

Adz has answered this to a limited extent, he does.

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean.


What he is saying is that I have made myself the higher power that makes decisions.....apparently.......
Logged

Good evenink. I wish I had a girlfriend.......
BigAdz
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 8152



View Profile
« Reply #410 on: April 17, 2019, 01:24:01 PM »

In our justice system, someone is an alleged criminal until he's been tried even if the judge and jury watched them commit the crime.

Innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. It might be inconvenient in some circumstances, but it's the only way.

You can argue as much as you like, but to have any credibility you have tell me who should have the absolute power to decide what constitutes a CLEAR CUT crime and be able to convict without trial.   

Adz has answered this to a limited extent, he does.


But at least I do.........answer, not just fluff.
Logged

Good evenink. I wish I had a girlfriend.......
BigAdz
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 8152



View Profile
« Reply #411 on: April 17, 2019, 01:25:04 PM »

What terrified me was British girl shrugging off severed heads rolling around in the back yard.


Pretty sure the folk moaning about fair trials etc, are the same that moan about austerity and our Government clamping down in all the wrong areas........

I’m trying to figure out what you mean. You’re saying you’ve identified a link between people who support human rights and people who disapprove of government policy that punishes (often kills as discussed extensively itt) the poor and vulnerable while favouring the very wealthiest? I hope you weren’t working on that for long, it’s not exactly Sherlock Holmes.


You know exactly what I mean, but as ever, your efforts to try and prove yourself,smarter(probably), funnier( not a chance), and more compassionate(misplaced) override everything.

I am all for fair trials, but not for wasting money when the evidence is clear cut and for all to see.

Man filmed running kid over on crossing. Sounds pretty cut and dry. Could be a multitude of reasons. Give him a fair trial. Correct.

Girl who openly tells the world she wants to leave the country because she hates it and believes in the cause of terrorism, then wants to come home, and in interviews isn't sorry for what she saw and was involved with, is a no brained.

It's a waste of money that can be used to bridge the austerity gap. Deep down, you know it, but have to twist it round to try and wriggle out of it because you know I'm right.

Let's deprive some kid of his cancer treatment so we can waste tens of thousands on a trial we all know is wrong and the outcome obvious.

Nice ethics KKK

That’s embarrassing. Our system of justice is one of the last things we should abandon. You support the government that is responsible for austerity, I know it is an entirely unnecessary political weapon and oppose it at every opportunity.

It’s just a simple fact that you don’t know the evidence in the Begum case, none of us do and that’s why it should be tested at trial. If she’s guilty of crimes by all means punish her. Let’s not get distracted by hysterical people who get scared and irrational every time they hear the word ‘terrorist’.


Proving again you dont read what I said.

I mentioned before their threat doesn't bother me. It doesnt inhibit my travelling etc.

What evidence do you need in the Begum case to say that she should be welcomed back then smartarse?

Don't disappear for the day, and hope it gets lost in the the next 24 hours.

What can a court case prove to you that we don't already know?

Did you read the papers when she left? Her statements and those of her friends? Her interviews when trying to come back?

Tell me what you think a trial will prove please. "her innocence" wont wash.

Excuse me, what? So what has been reported in the media should decide someone's guilt or not? Our legal system is based on needing to prove someone's guild before a court of law, it's not a perfect system but it's a hell of a lot better than what you've just suggested. This isn't about Begum and shouldn't be about her, it's about the integrity of our legal system. Once you start saying it shouldn't apply to someone because it won't prove anything, you start deciding where that line will be drawn, and it's a line that should never exist if our freedom is worth anything.

For someone that doesn't want to get involved, you are doing well......
Logged

Good evenink. I wish I had a girlfriend.......
BigAdz
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 8152



View Profile
« Reply #412 on: April 17, 2019, 01:28:38 PM »

What terrified me was British girl shrugging off severed heads rolling around in the back yard.


Pretty sure the folk moaning about fair trials etc, are the same that moan about austerity and our Government clamping down in all the wrong areas........

I’m trying to figure out what you mean. You’re saying you’ve identified a link between people who support human rights and people who disapprove of government policy that punishes (often kills as discussed extensively itt) the poor and vulnerable while favouring the very wealthiest? I hope you weren’t working on that for long, it’s not exactly Sherlock Holmes.


You know exactly what I mean, but as ever, your efforts to try and prove yourself,smarter(probably), funnier( not a chance), and more compassionate(misplaced) override everything.

I am all for fair trials, but not for wasting money when the evidence is clear cut and for all to see.

Man filmed running kid over on crossing. Sounds pretty cut and dry. Could be a multitude of reasons. Give him a fair trial. Correct.

Girl who openly tells the world she wants to leave the country because she hates it and believes in the cause of terrorism, then wants to come home, and in interviews isn't sorry for what she saw and was involved with, is a no brained.

It's a waste of money that can be used to bridge the austerity gap. Deep down, you know it, but have to twist it round to try and wriggle out of it because you know I'm right.

Let's deprive some kid of his cancer treatment so we can waste tens of thousands on a trial we all know is wrong and the outcome obvious.

Nice ethics KKK

That’s embarrassing. Our system of justice is one of the last things we should abandon. You support the government that is responsible for austerity, I know it is an entirely unnecessary political weapon and oppose it at every opportunity.

It’s just a simple fact that you don’t know the evidence in the Begum case, none of us do and that’s why it should be tested at trial. If she’s guilty of crimes by all means punish her. Let’s not get distracted by hysterical people who get scared and irrational every time they hear the word ‘terrorist’.


Proving again you dont read what I said.

I mentioned before their threat doesn't bother me. It doesnt inhibit my travelling etc.

What evidence do you need in the Begum case to say that she should be welcomed back then smartarse?

Don't disappear for the day, and hope it gets lost in the the next 24 hours.

What can a court case prove to you that we don't already know?

Did you read the papers when she left? Her statements and those of her friends? Her interviews when trying to come back?

Tell me what you think a trial will prove please. "her innocence" wont wash.

lol 😂 I’m not allowed to disappear for the day. I do have loads of stuff to do. Show me a post where I didn’t respond in a way that you consider sufficient and I’ll address it when I can. Is there a timescale you need me to work to?

We don’t know the evidence. It’s very clear that you don’t really understand what evidence is. “Did you read the papers when she left?” I wouldn’t like to be the person who brought that evidence before a court. :-)


STILL not answered the question.

What can she say that will make her innocent in your eyes, and then justify not wasting tax payers money, KKK?

To my mind, dont we already have things like the CPS, or the equivalent of the District Attourny, that makes decisions about what should be brought to court and what shouldn't?

A decision to not let her back in was made. Lets stand by it.
Logged

Good evenink. I wish I had a girlfriend.......
kukushkin88
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3892



View Profile
« Reply #413 on: April 17, 2019, 01:29:51 PM »

In our justice system, someone is an alleged criminal until he's been tried even if the judge and jury watched them commit the crime.

Innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. It might be inconvenient in some circumstances, but it's the only way.

You can argue as much as you like, but to have any credibility you have tell me who should have the absolute power to decide what constitutes a CLEAR CUT crime and be able to convict without trial.   

Adz has answered this to a limited extent, he does.

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean.

I was suggesting that he seems to think he is well placed to adjudicate on such matters.
Logged
kukushkin88
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3892



View Profile
« Reply #414 on: April 17, 2019, 01:39:23 PM »

What terrified me was British girl shrugging off severed heads rolling around in the back yard.


Pretty sure the folk moaning about fair trials etc, are the same that moan about austerity and our Government clamping down in all the wrong areas........

I’m trying to figure out what you mean. You’re saying you’ve identified a link between people who support human rights and people who disapprove of government policy that punishes (often kills as discussed extensively itt) the poor and vulnerable while favouring the very wealthiest? I hope you weren’t working on that for long, it’s not exactly Sherlock Holmes.


You know exactly what I mean, but as ever, your efforts to try and prove yourself,smarter(probably), funnier( not a chance), and more compassionate(misplaced) override everything.

I am all for fair trials, but not for wasting money when the evidence is clear cut and for all to see.

Man filmed running kid over on crossing. Sounds pretty cut and dry. Could be a multitude of reasons. Give him a fair trial. Correct.

Girl who openly tells the world she wants to leave the country because she hates it and believes in the cause of terrorism, then wants to come home, and in interviews isn't sorry for what she saw and was involved with, is a no brained.

It's a waste of money that can be used to bridge the austerity gap. Deep down, you know it, but have to twist it round to try and wriggle out of it because you know I'm right.

Let's deprive some kid of his cancer treatment so we can waste tens of thousands on a trial we all know is wrong and the outcome obvious.

Nice ethics KKK

That’s embarrassing. Our system of justice is one of the last things we should abandon. You support the government that is responsible for austerity, I know it is an entirely unnecessary political weapon and oppose it at every opportunity.

It’s just a simple fact that you don’t know the evidence in the Begum case, none of us do and that’s why it should be tested at trial. If she’s guilty of crimes by all means punish her. Let’s not get distracted by hysterical people who get scared and irrational every time they hear the word ‘terrorist’.


Proving again you dont read what I said.

I mentioned before their threat doesn't bother me. It doesnt inhibit my travelling etc.

What evidence do you need in the Begum case to say that she should be welcomed back then smartarse?

Don't disappear for the day, and hope it gets lost in the the next 24 hours.

What can a court case prove to you that we don't already know?

Did you read the papers when she left? Her statements and those of her friends? Her interviews when trying to come back?

Tell me what you think a trial will prove please. "her innocence" wont wash.

lol 😂 I’m not allowed to disappear for the day. I do have loads of stuff to do. Show me a post where I didn’t respond in a way that you consider sufficient and I’ll address it when I can. Is there a timescale you need me to work to?

We don’t know the evidence. It’s very clear that you don’t really understand what evidence is. “Did you read the papers when she left?” I wouldn’t like to be the person who brought that evidence before a court. :-)


STILL not answered the question.

What can she say that will make her innocent in your eyes, and then justify not wasting tax payers money, KKK?

To my mind, dont we already have things like the CPS, or the equivalent of the District Attourny, that makes decisions about what should be brought to court and what shouldn't?

A decision to not let her back in was made. Lets stand by it.

I guess you’d need to say what crime you suspect. I certainly don’t think she’s innocent of the charges she’d likely face but I certainly don’t know if she is/isn’t. It’s very unimportant whether she’s innocent or not in my eyes. I guess being found innocent in a trial would be good enough but I can’t emphasise enough how irrelevant my judgement is on a matter like this. Your judgement is equally unimportant/irrelevant.

The decision was illegal, it will probably be overturned.
Logged
Jon MW
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 6191



View Profile
« Reply #415 on: April 17, 2019, 01:50:12 PM »

What terrified me was British girl shrugging off severed heads rolling around in the back yard.


Pretty sure the folk moaning about fair trials etc, are the same that moan about austerity and our Government clamping down in all the wrong areas........

I’m trying to figure out what you mean. You’re saying you’ve identified a link between people who support human rights and people who disapprove of government policy that punishes (often kills as discussed extensively itt) the poor and vulnerable while favouring the very wealthiest? I hope you weren’t working on that for long, it’s not exactly Sherlock Holmes.


You know exactly what I mean, but as ever, your efforts to try and prove yourself,smarter(probably), funnier( not a chance), and more compassionate(misplaced) override everything.

I am all for fair trials, but not for wasting money when the evidence is clear cut and for all to see.

Man filmed running kid over on crossing. Sounds pretty cut and dry. Could be a multitude of reasons. Give him a fair trial. Correct.

Girl who openly tells the world she wants to leave the country because she hates it and believes in the cause of terrorism, then wants to come home, and in interviews isn't sorry for what she saw and was involved with, is a no brained.

It's a waste of money that can be used to bridge the austerity gap. Deep down, you know it, but have to twist it round to try and wriggle out of it because you know I'm right.

Let's deprive some kid of his cancer treatment so we can waste tens of thousands on a trial we all know is wrong and the outcome obvious.

Nice ethics KKK

That’s embarrassing. Our system of justice is one of the last things we should abandon. You support the government that is responsible for austerity, I know it is an entirely unnecessary political weapon and oppose it at every opportunity.

It’s just a simple fact that you don’t know the evidence in the Begum case, none of us do and that’s why it should be tested at trial. If she’s guilty of crimes by all means punish her. Let’s not get distracted by hysterical people who get scared and irrational every time they hear the word ‘terrorist’.


Proving again you dont read what I said.

I mentioned before their threat doesn't bother me. It doesnt inhibit my travelling etc.

What evidence do you need in the Begum case to say that she should be welcomed back then smartarse?

Don't disappear for the day, and hope it gets lost in the the next 24 hours.

What can a court case prove to you that we don't already know?

Did you read the papers when she left? Her statements and those of her friends? Her interviews when trying to come back?

Tell me what you think a trial will prove please. "her innocence" wont wash.

lol 😂 I’m not allowed to disappear for the day. I do have loads of stuff to do. Show me a post where I didn’t respond in a way that you consider sufficient and I’ll address it when I can. Is there a timescale you need me to work to?

We don’t know the evidence. It’s very clear that you don’t really understand what evidence is. “Did you read the papers when she left?” I wouldn’t like to be the person who brought that evidence before a court. :-)


STILL not answered the question.

What can she say that will make her innocent in your eyes, and then justify not wasting tax payers money, KKK?

To my mind, dont we already have things like the CPS, or the equivalent of the District Attourny, that makes decisions about what should be brought to court and what shouldn't?

A decision to not let her back in was made. Lets stand by it.

I guess you’d need to say what crime you suspect. I certainly don’t think she’s innocent of the charges she’d likely face but I certainly don’t know if she is/isn’t. It’s very unimportant whether she’s innocent or not in my eyes. I guess being found innocent in a trial would be good enough but I can’t emphasise enough how irrelevant my judgement is on a matter like this. Your judgement is equally unimportant/irrelevant.

The decision was illegal, it will probably be overturned.

The legal aid she's getting is precisely to decide whether it was legal to not let her back in.

Whether she's clearly guilty of anything is irrelevant - she could already be legally tried and found guilty but having her citizenship removed could still be illegal.


The idea is that everyone and everything, including the government have to abide by the law.

Or do you think it would be a good idea if the government were always allowed to proclaim whatever they wanted to be true and there not be any mechanism to challenge it or overturn it?
Logged

Jon "the British cowboy" Woodfield

2011 blonde MTT League August Champion
2011 UK Team Championships: Black Belt Poker Team Captain  - - runners up - -
5 Star HORSE Classic - 2007 Razz Champion
2007 WSOP Razz - 13/341
Jon MW
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 6191



View Profile
« Reply #416 on: April 17, 2019, 01:54:09 PM »

Also in support of Kush - it's really not ever been made clear exactly what law she's obviously guilty of.

From a lay mans point of view, I'd say she probably is guilty of breaking a law or some laws, but if you're going to convict people (with or without a trial as you see fit) you still usually need to be able to point to the actual piece of legislation that says what law (or laws) they've broken.

Apart from anything else - people might get sentenced too lightly if you don't know for sure all the laws they've broken.

As well as the argument that we need the justice system to work properly so that innocent people don't get punished - we also need it to work properly so that guilty people get punished enough.
Logged

Jon "the British cowboy" Woodfield

2011 blonde MTT League August Champion
2011 UK Team Championships: Black Belt Poker Team Captain  - - runners up - -
5 Star HORSE Classic - 2007 Razz Champion
2007 WSOP Razz - 13/341
RED-DOG
International Lover World Wide Playboy
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 46911



View Profile WWW
« Reply #417 on: April 17, 2019, 02:41:34 PM »

In our justice system, someone is an alleged criminal until he's been tried even if the judge and jury watched them commit the crime.

Innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. It might be inconvenient in some circumstances, but it's the only way.

You can argue as much as you like, but to have any credibility you have tell me who should have the absolute power to decide what constitutes a CLEAR CUT crime and be able to convict without trial.   

Adz has answered this to a limited extent, he does.

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean.

I was suggesting that he seems to think he is well placed to adjudicate on such matters.


Oh I see.

What Iwould like is a straightforward answer from Adz himself. Who should have the power to pronounce guilt without trial?
Logged

The older I get, the better I was.
kukushkin88
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3892



View Profile
« Reply #418 on: April 17, 2019, 02:58:07 PM »

JMW alludes to a good point, in that to avoid confusion, we should probably specify whether we are taking about revocation of citizenship or guilt with regard to an as yet unspecified crime.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2019, 03:01:05 PM by kukushkin88 » Logged
BigAdz
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 8152



View Profile
« Reply #419 on: April 17, 2019, 03:50:02 PM »

In our justice system, someone is an alleged criminal until he's been tried even if the judge and jury watched them commit the crime.

Innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. It might be inconvenient in some circumstances, but it's the only way.

You can argue as much as you like, but to have any credibility you have tell me who should have the absolute power to decide what constitutes a CLEAR CUT crime and be able to convict without trial.   

Adz has answered this to a limited extent, he does.

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean.

I was suggesting that he seems to think he is well placed to adjudicate on such matters.


Oh I see.

What Iwould like is a straightforward answer from Adz himself. Who should have the power to pronounce guilt without trial?


What you have got is that answer above.......re CPS/DAs etc. It might not be what you want to hear but thats my answer....
Logged

Good evenink. I wish I had a girlfriend.......
Pages: 1 ... 24 25 26 27 [28] 29 30 31 32 Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.362 seconds with 20 queries.